Paul Verkuil, W&M Class of 1961, President, and Honorary Alumnus of 2017
The Honorable Paul Verkuil arrived at William & Mary in 1957. During his time as a student, he was active in the ROTC and Pi Lamba Phi.
Verkuil served as President of William & Mary from 1985 to 1992.
William & Mary
Interviewee: Paul Verkuil
Interviewer: Carmen Bolt
Date: September 20, 2017 Duration: 1:19:34
Carmen: My name is Carmen Bolt, the oral historian at William & Mary. It’s currently around 3:00 p.m. on September 20, 2017. I’m sitting in the Alumni House with Paul Verkuil. Could we start with you telling me the date and place of your birth?
Paul: Oh. December 4, 1939, Staten Island, New York.
Carmen: And what years did you attend William & Mary as a student?
Paul: ’57 to ’61.
Paul: Yeah, fall of ’57 I came to Williamsburg.
Carmen: And you said you were born in Staten Island. Is that where you were raised?
Carmen: Can you tell me a little bit what it was like to grow up there and what your family dynamic was like?
Paul: Well, my family, my father had come from Holland. Was born in Leiden. And he came with…my grandfather brought them all. There were four boys, so I had three uncles. And my grandfather was a diamond setter. And so the boys were apprenticing under him to be diamond setters, which, since they came in the early ‘20s, and he was 15, my father, by the time he learned how to be a diamond setter, the Depression came in 1929, 1930, so that was the world’s worst trade to be in.
So then he became an optician, which is grinding lenses and putting… So that’s what he did. He had Verkuil Brothers Opticians in Staten Island for many years, 40 years. And my mother walked into his shop one day and met him and they got together. She needed a lot of correction, and he took good care of her, and they got married, and then I came along.
Carmen: Were you an only child?
Paul: No. My sister Marina came about nine years later.
Paul: So I was an only child for a while.
Carmen: But a little bit of an age gap there.
Paul: An age gap, yeah. It made almost like two separate childhoods because I went off to college when she was still very young and, you know, only connected again later. But Staten Island is a lot different than what it is now. I don’t know if you’re familiar with New York.
Carmen: A little, but I wouldn’t know—
Paul: So the big event in Staten Island’s history was the building of the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, which happened in 1963, right after I graduated, and it opened it up. So then when I was there it was really a bucolic, a lot of farms, small communities, and you’d have to take the ferry boat to get to New York City.
00:03:02 So I took the ferry boat many, many times. In fact I had to go to school in New York once to get a certain course in German, I remember. I didn’t have in Staten Island, so I took it every day.
Carmen: Wow, that’s incredible. And to grow up in such proximity to Manhattan would just be—
Paul: Yeah, which was very important. And in my high school the most…it’s interesting. I mean, I select these…you know, obviously you remember things, but, you know, I went to a public high school, Curtis High School, which was down by the ferry pier. And it was a good place. I got a good education, I think. But the thing I did was in my senior year I was in the play. I was a big part in the, you know, we put on a play for the school.
00:03:58 And I remember this was 1957, early, before I came here, and the person who directed the play was an English teacher, Mr. Quinn. I’ll never forget Mr. Quinn. He said, you know, you did so well—to the cast—I’m going to take you to New York to see a play. He takes us to Off Broadway down in the Village to see “Iceman Cometh.” And do you know Eugene O’Neill at all? Do you know “Iceman?”
Carmen: Yeah, but don’t know “Iceman.”
Paul: It’s his best, and it was Jason Robards starring in “Iceman Cometh.” That’s the greatest performance of “Iceman” ever done, and I got to see it. I didn’t pursue the thespian world, but that really moved me. And I always felt grateful because I’m sure he did it on his own.
00:05:01 No one was subvening him or anything, and so he probably just got all—and he paid for everyone’s tickets and took us over.
Carmen: That’s incredible.
Paul: So that was a big sort of selected memory of high school moments. You know, that was important.
Carmen: Yeah, it stands out to you. Well, that’s great. So you mentioned this was kind of right at the spring, I’m assuming, before you went to William & Mary. So how did William & Mary even get on your radar?
Paul: Well, I always…I’ve been asked that and I had a cousin who came here, and so I knew the name of the college. And I think mostly we just fell in love with it. We came to Williamsburg. My parents took me down here. And I applied to Hobart, a few other schools in the Northeast, but this sort of was very captivating, so… We heard about it, we came down.
00:06:01 My parents weren’t sophisticated. My mother had gone to college, and she went to Columbia, so she knew a lot of things, but my father hadn’t, so we thought this was nice.
Carmen: Well, it is nice. It’s beautiful. And I imagine a little different environment than what you grew up with.
Paul: A lot different, a lot different, which was fine for me.
Carmen: So how did you make that decision, then, between all those schools? What is it exactly that stuck out to you?
Paul: So I just think it was the place. I remember being interviewed. In those days the college sent out interviewers in what’s now the Biltmore Hotel, which is no longer there. It’s now some other major hotel in New York on Park Avenue. And they took a room with Scotty, the dean of admissions, Dean Lambert, who was the dean of students, and they interviewed me. And, you know, it went very well, and so…
Carmen: It made a good impression on you then, and vice versa, it sounds like.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. So it was…they replied that they would like me to come and, you know, I mean, I wasn’t…didn’t have all these—it’s not like it is today where you apply to a hundred colleges, it seems. I just applied to a couple places, so this was the one I liked best.
Carmen: Great. So do you have any very first memories of being here, what it looked like, what it smelled like? What that experience was like coming here?
Paul: Well, you know, in those days it was very—it wasn’t so easy to get here. Start there. There was a Jersey Turnpike, but there was no Delaware Memorial Bridge. And I think we had…there was a ferry involved at some point.
00:07:58 And there was no, you know, I-95, so, you know, all these back, what seemed like back roads. So it took a long, you know, to travel down here from New York maybe took 12, 10 hours. It was a long day. There was one other Staten Islander, Jackie Dreher, D-R-E-H-E-R. I never knew what happened to Jackie. But we picked her up, I think, somehow and we drove down.
And then when you come to Williamsburg, it’s Williamsburg. It’s a quiet little town. I’m always so shocked when I come back and see how quiet it is. Well, especially if you live in New York, when you walk out of your apartment and people are knocking you over. But it was like that. Everything revolved around the dorm. And we moved into dorms.
00:08:58 And, you know, at first freshmen all hung out together, and we had to wear beanies. I can’t remember. There’s a whole lot of stuff that went on. The Alumni House has all these old things.
Carmen: Oh, yes, and in Special Collections we have some of those duc caps as well.
Paul: Duc caps, yeah. We had to tip our hat to Lord Botetourt. That was part of the deal.
Carmen: To his statue?
Paul: The statue which is now in the library. Now there’s a copy. But anyway, so my first impression was very much, you know, that I was in a land of peace and calm. You know, and we were kids. We’re just loving having the freedom.
Carmen: Definitely. Great. Did you know what you wanted to study before you got here?
Paul: Yes, I think so, honestly. When I was about 15 I started reading. I got into this, I was reading every—I loved Steinbeck, Hemingway, all the ‘20s authors, ‘30s authors, Faulkner, and John Dos Passos. So I became a literature nut. And that was really the courses in my high school that I liked the best and did the best in. So I think I knew I was going to be an English major. And the Victorian novel was a big part of my life at that point.
Carmen: It sounds like it. So did you ever second guess that when you were here or did you really enjoy that course?
Paul: I really didn’t. And later on in life I did. I think I probably should have maybe done political science because I turned into this person who deals with public policy in the world.
00:11:00 But at the time I didn’t really take a second look at it. I enjoyed the professors. LeRoy Smith, Victorian. There were several who were very influential in my life. And I liked the department.
Carmen: Great. You mentioned a couple professors that stood out to you. Were there any other mentors or advisors during your time here that stand out in your mind?
Paul: Yes. The assistant dean of men was Carson Barnes, who is still alive because he sends emails around once in a while. Carson was not the dean. The dean was Dean Farrar, who I got to know, who was this big glad-handing, hello, how are you? He always used to walk around campus.
00:12:03 And so he stood out in my mind. The president seemed very forbidding. That’s Alvin Chandler, who’s right up there. You know, this…he didn’t, he wasn’t the kind of president that I hope I was, which is a bit more open and things, but he was, you know, he was an admiral, so he…and the relationships were different. He was older than students. So he didn’t really—although I had an interesting encounter which I would like to relate at some point with him. But initially I think it was more some of the deans, some of the faculty. And the people, the students I met.
00:12:55 My big brother, Peter Neufeld. Fraternities and sororities were very important in those days—that’s another thing which is interesting—than they are today. I don’t think they play as big a role in student life. Which is fine, but those days a lot revolved around the Greek system for boys and girls. And so who was in your fraternity mattered to you.
Carmen: So those are the people maybe you were closest with when you were here?
Paul: Yeah, I think so. At least initially. The other team I had—here was…my problem was paying for college. So my folks didn’t have that much money to pay. They would really do what they could. But I needed to take a job. So I was fortunate that I could work at the King’s Arms Tavern, which, you know where it is, up on Duke of Gloucester Street. I walk by it every once in a while.
00:14:00 And the King’s Arms had a cadre of students in those days—they don’t do it anymore—who were waiters. And you could wait enough tables during the week and on the weekends so that you literally could be like a full-time job. Which was conflicting with other things, and it did affect my grades.
But I created this friendship group of King’s Arms waiters, because we would work till 8:00 and then we’d come down to the Corner Greeks and have a 3.2 beer, which was legal if you were 18. And so, you know, it was a lot of… So that was almost like another fraternity for me. And the people who were King’s Arms waiters were pretty, you know, they had to work hard and then get ready for class and all that stuff.
00:14:56 But I made enough to pay my tuition, which you could not possibly do in today’s world. Just think of that. And I don’t know exactly how much it was—I’m sure we could figure that out—in those days, but the King’s Arms was very… You know, I worked in the summer and holidays, so I really became almost like a…after my second semester I started and was part of it. It was my life.
Carmen: So did you stay here during the summers and the holidays?
Paul: I stayed here during the summers. Went home a little bit. But you could work, you know, then you really could work full-time. You weren’t in school.
Carmen: Yeah, absolutely. That’s—
Paul: And so I put money away. It was a very big thing for me. And my friends from that, we still talk about it. Jim Brinkley, who became the rector, just to name one.
00:16:01 Which, they were from different, you know, they weren’t from the same fraternity.
Carmen: But it became another community for you.
Paul: Yeah. So rush… So what happened—this is an interesting story. It shows you a little bit about the social aspects of life in William & Mary in the ‘50s. My friends from New York, some of whom I’d known from Long Island, were mostly Jewish. And the dean, Dean Farrar, one day called me into his office and said, well, how are you doing? Are you enjoying life? He said, would you like to join my church, Bruton Parish?
00:17:00 And I said no, I don’t think so. I’m not really ready for that. And then he said a few other questions. And then he said okay, I give up. He said I have to ask you. Are you Jewish? He said because the Kappa Sigs want to rush you, but they can’t rush you if you’re Jewish. This is what happened. And I said, what?
So the only fraternity that would take Jews in those days—maybe there were two, but the only one I knew was Pi Lambda Phi. And so I said to myself, you know, that really didn’t seem right. So I figured that I’m going to join Pi Lamb because at least they don’t ask that question. And I wasn’t Jewish. I’m not Jewish. But I have a Dutch name. And they had, for some reason, roomed me with a Jewish student, so I think they must have, in their own mind, figured this guy, who knows what was figured out behind the scenes, I don’t know.
00:17:57 So I thought it was very important. And people said well, you know, the Kappa Sigs are much more socially whatever, approved, and you’re hanging out with all these kids who are… We had Chinese and Catholics, and… But it turned out to be a very good decision. I became president of Pi Lamb and it was a very good organization.
But that just is a small picture of how—now this was long before there was integration, so… That didn’t occur until after I graduated, in ’64 maybe, undergraduate integration. But, you know, you really aren’t aware of this stuff. You’re living in a very lovely, protected environment and it’s not that powerful except in my case, which I thought was pretty amazing that the dean of admissions would actually ask you these questions, or the dean of men, rather, would ask you these questions.
Carmen: Yeah, that’s pretty astounding. But it resulted in you being in what sounds like one of the more diverse fraternities because of it.
Paul: Yes, because these were…that’s right. And, you know, and so I had a lot of diverse… We had the Wong brothers from Petersburg. Their father had a Chinese restaurant we used to drive down to see. It was very interesting. And so Peter Neufeld, who I mentioned, became my big brother. Peter then became a producer in New York. He produced all these plays, and he would always get me tickets, so I got to see a lot of theatre through Peter. He graduated. He was three years ahead of me. So whenever I went back, he would take care of me.
Carmen: That’s a good big brother to have.
Paul: Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was very good. And, you know, the people who you knew, a lot of them went back to New York, so there was a connection.
Carmen: Wow. Yeah, that’s fascinating. But then also thinking about so much of this is fascinating, what you just mentioned about the dean of men coming and talking about your religion or culture. Also the ability to work almost full-time and pay for school.
Paul: Yes, that was quite a… Now that, you know, in some respects, I think it thwarted my academic efforts, but it made all the difference, so I really… And you grow up, because you had to worry about your budget and, you know, as well as having a good time, and dating, and…
Carmen: Yeah, tell me more about that. You mentioned how Greek life was just so very central. Even if it’s still prominent now, it wasn’t quite what it was at that time, so…
Paul: So then, I think that was…most of the social life revolved around the lodges, which are not far—were over there on the other side of the football field. So actually, I lived there because I was the president, and I was president of the pledge class, and so I lived there for two years, which was very nice. Only three people lived in the lodge and the rest had to come mostly on Saturday night when we’d have all these dances and, you know. Ike and Tina Turner came. They were—you probably know those.
Carmen: Yeah, wow.
Paul: They were from down maybe Hampton, Newport News. They would play at big events. Maybelline, music. We would get a, you know, combo and then everyone…
00:21:59 And then there was this sort of game that was played. This is Carson Barnes, I mentioned, the assistant dean. His job was to make sure we didn’t drink at the lodges. But we’d always get kegs. It was always funny. We could get a keg, but you had to do it in a very discreet way, and then if the dean came down you had to put it in the closet or something. But everyone did have access to some beer, and that was a big part of the deal. It wasn’t 3.2, so… They don’t have 3.2 anymore.
Carmen: I haven’t even heard of 3.2, if that tells you anything. I don’t know.
Paul: The Greeks, you know, the Corner Greek, which is no longer called the Greeks.
Carmen: Lots of people reference it.
Paul: All right. So it was run by this, obviously this Greek family. And the son, because I worked here during the summers and everything, I got to know the family.
00:23:02 And they were wonderful. That was the social place if you didn’t go to a lodge, in a lodge or… The sorority houses didn’t have any social life too much. You know, they didn’t have parties like the fraternities did.
Carmen: I know there were more regulations on women.
Paul: And lots of regulations, oh yeah. There were chaperones. And we even had a chaperone in our lodge, you know, who was supposedly to keep order, but…the best she could. But sororities all had…and then they had hours and things, restrictions like that.
Carmen: How did that affect the dating scene?
Paul: Yeah, you know, it kept it…you know, it all had to end. I can’t remember whether it was 11:00 or 12:00, but it had to end not too late. And then you’d go out. The guys would then just hang out. [Laughs.]
Carmen: You guys kept going.
Paul: Yeah, we would go later.
Carmen: But it does sound like you were kind of in things that were the heart of social life, really, on campus during the time you were here.
Paul: So, I mean, I don’t want to misconstrue the sort of balance. I thought the social life was…because of our campus and the fact that there’s no real town—you could go to Richmond—we did go to Richmond on occasion, drive, if someone had a car. I later got a car, a ’49 Ford when I, you know, because I was working and I was able to do that. I mean, I think the whole thing cost me $300. And we’d go to Richmond to Redd Foxx. Do you know who Redd Foxx is?
Carmen: I don’t know Redd Foxx. What’s Redd Foxx?
Paul: He had a big TV show later. He had a comedy act in Richmond. We would go once in a while. I remember that event.
Carmen: So you found ways to have fun.
Carmen: But not to say that you neglected your studies, so you graduated, so that’s a—
Paul: Well, I mean, graduated, sure. I also did ROTC. That was pretty important at the time. You know, everyone… We only had Army ROTC, but I was in the Corps of Cadets and very active in that. We did summer camp at Fort Knox, Kentucky, Armor Division. But ROTC was another thing. We used to march in the Sunken Gardens and then, you know, training and…
00:26:00 That was a big part of life because everyone anticipated going into the military, which is, again, something that now we have an all volunteer army.
Carmen: Yeah, that’s wild to think about the differences there.
Paul: So now, you know, some who do it are to be admired. I saw an ROTC cadet walking with a big pack on him as I was coming over here. So they still have a corps. But you select out yourself.
Carmen: Absolutely. Did it take you back when you saw him with his pack walking around?
Paul: Yeah. Had one giant pack, too. I wondered what…I never had one that big, so he must be…you know, I almost wanted to ask him what’s in the damn thing. It was really quite impressive.
Carmen: So what was it like balancing all of that—being in a fraternity, being in ROTC, your education, work?
Paul: Right, so, you know, this was long before computers existed. Typewriters or even writing by hand. Sometimes you’d turn in papers that were handwritten, things that would be unheard of today.
00:27:08 Most of the… You know, school was demanding, you know. Certainly the faculty, a lot of assignments, and some departments were more demanding than others. And I think in English you had to write a lot, which was a good thing. Which, of course, I still do that, so, you know, I enjoy writing, expression, verbal, written.
Carmen: Great. So before I ask you some pretty broad questions that are going to cause you to think, you mentioned that you had a story about Alvin Chandler that you wanted to…
Paul: Well, I don’t know if you saw that video—
Carmen: I did see that.
Paul: When I talked to the 50th anniversary.
Carmen: Yes, and we’re going to work on getting you a copy of the unedited, the unclipped version.
Paul: Did you see the unclipped thing?
Carmen: I did see the unclipped one. I found it.
Paul: Oh. Well, it’s interesting why that happened. Maybe they felt I was being insensitive.
Carmen: I’m not sure. I can’t even find anyone who was originally working on that one.
Paul: So I think I should record this just because it’s an important part of William & Mary’s social history.
Paul: And, you know, we are a state university in a state that supported massive resistance in those days. And Harry Byrd and…who closed the public schools rather than integrate. And that part was really after, you know, I graduated in ’61. It didn’t really heat up that there were protests and things in Richmond when people were sitting in in the lunch counters and things, movie theatres.
00:29:08 They would keep walking around trying—they couldn’t be sold a ticket. And so that stuff came when I was later in the army, stationed in Richmond, I was aware of it.
But during the college it didn’t come to a head as much, except that my friend at William & Mary, my fraternity brother, Gabe Wilner, who, I don’t know what his situation is now, honestly, but he became the first Jewish president of the student body, which was a big deal for Pi Lambs, because Pi Lambs, you know, weren’t that politically connected in the outside, that stuff. So Gabe then tells me, all right, I’m going to see the admiral because I’m going to ask him why there are no blacks on campus.
00:30:00 So I walked him over to the president’s house, where I later lived. I remember standing outside because I wasn’t really invited. And Gabe went in and came back out in about 15 minutes, shook his head. He said, Jesus, Paul, he said, I asked the admiral, I said why are there no blacks or Negroes on campus, and the admiral said, well, Gabe, I don’t know why you say that. They’re working in the lunch rooms, they’re working in the dormitories. He said I don’t think he really understood what I was saying.
Because it was puzzling because…that’s sort of the way the world was. And it wasn’t that the admiral…he was just playing it out. It didn’t dawn on him. So we were before the push came in integration where it, you know, it was confrontational. There were very, to my knowledge, very few, if any—I mean, I wasn’t a political activist, as some of my classmates might have been, that much, but I was aware of it.
00:31:08 And I think it’s an important sort of perspective on how things did evolve in the state and in the nation.
Carmen: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to ask you about that, actually, because I know during the time you were there, there were never any black undergraduate students, but three at various points came into different graduate programs, only because—and I’ve read the letters that were written, actually, back and forth between administration and the individuals applying—only because the programs they were applying to were not offered at Virginia State University, so that’s why they were—
Paul: Right. So that was what’s called separate but equal. You probably know that. And of course I became a lawyer.
00:31:56 But there was a case in the Supreme Court before even the ‘60s, late ‘50s. I think it was in Texas. Sweatt v. Painter I believe is the name of the case. Where it said that if the state—to be separate, but equal—this is before Brown v. the Board, which held separate but equal to be unconstitutional. But if you had equal programs, then you could separate the races, but if you didn’t, then that’s why these students would get to come to the college. So I think you’re right. Our first graduate was not an undergraduate, our first minority graduate was—
Carmen: Right, yes. It was—Edward Travis was the first graduate, and I think he was at the law school, so he… Yeah, so…and I even noted in the letters I was reading through the correspondence back and forth through…after Brown v. Board, so in the later ‘50s the conversation started changing from, well, this is offered at Virginia State to well, we’re reassessing now that the Supreme Court has made this ruling, but that reassessment continued for the next decade, you know, before ’67, when we did have the first African American residential students here.
Carmen: Yeah, the first three residential students were in 1967. It’s been 50 years ago. We’re celebrating it this year, actually.
Paul: That’s good.
Carmen: It’s good. It’s—
Paul: Are they students still around, available?
Carmen: They are. They actually have been coming back for some of the events we have.
Paul: Oh, that’s so nice. That’s so nice. You have to just admire people who could do, come through this, this thicket of rules against you to get in. I mean, I’ve always… Well, civil rights became a big part of my life when I got into law school and practiced, but…
00:33:56 These pictures of, you know, these poor kids integrating Ole Miss, you know, how frightened they must have been.
Carmen: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s hard to believe. It’s exciting to celebrate 50 years and then it’s wild to think that it’s only been 50 years, you know. But yeah, we’re doing that throughout this whole year.
Paul: Oh, good, good. Well, we should do that. And I always felt we should be trying to represent the state, everybody who’s in the state in some way.
Carmen: But you didn’t feel during your time here that those tensions were really…?
Paul: I didn’t sense them. You know, maybe we lived in some kind of an idyll. Maybe I said something like this to my class, too. I said we were sort of protected, in some way in a bubble. We had…we liked each…we had great times and we worried about, I guess, serious issues, but that one didn’t confront us as it later did, you know, where you couldn’t avoid it.
Carmen: Yeah, definitely. I’m also thinking of different things that were going on in the broader world or nationally during the time you were here, like it was Cold War time. Did you see that, any of those tensions play out on campus?
Paul: Yes. The Cold War was…well, I guess the military was one thing. We were always preparing because we didn’t know, and we were subject to the draft. But there were other restrictions on civil rights produced by the Cold War, the so-called McCarthy period, which really was earlier, I mean, ’54 to maybe—even when I was in high school in New York they had a loyalty oath requirement. Now that’s for high school students. Which I remember I caused a problem because I refused to sign it.
00:36:00 And they said, well, if you want to go to college you’ve got sign this or we’re not going to transfer your…send your transcript. And I said, no, I’m not going to sign. But finally they gave in. So there was this tension created by the Cold War, which was a very serious thing. I mean, you know, in grade school you’d be going under your desk and preparing for…you know, people had bomb shelters.
Paul: So all of that part of the world, we tend to forget what tensions that creates. We just lived with it. Here it wasn’t as, though we’re in a very, you know, military area, because the Navy and…so…
Carmen: So were there—
Paul: When you think about it, the… So John Kennedy is in 1960, and Eisenhower started in ’52.
00:37:01 And Eisenhower…these were the Eisenhower years. They’ve been characterized as kind of quiet years, where… I mean, there was Little Rock. There were tensions, racial tensions. But still not of the power. I mean, Martin Luther King’s great moments were ahead of him in those years, so… But I think the Cold War created an attitude, and a sort of nervousness. You know, you never knew.
Paul: Eisenhower was the right President. Obviously he led the invasion at Normandy, so… And he would not get sucked into, you know, he would try and avoid confrontations, which is a beautiful thing in a President who knew…and who knows what war is.
00:38:01 And not one of these phonies who, you know, has never served, or guys with deferments. He’s a great man, and great general, and was a very good President. And so you lived with it. But he was like another era. And that’s when Kennedy came, who really was young. Born in this century, I remember he said.
Carmen: He felt like the people’s President, maybe? Or at least the youth’s President?
Paul: Well, he felt like mine. And that’s another political story. The one thing that did happen was, it was in the fall of ’60 he’s running for President. Bobby Kennedy shows up at the mayor’s office in Williamsburg stomping for Jack. I’d never seen him, so I went. I wasn’t that consumed by politics. I remember some of my classmates were big Nixon fans, so it was Kennedy-Nixon.
00:39:00 But when Bobby Kennedy—he had a white shirt, sleeves rolled up, you know, the chunk of hair—I don’t know if you’ve seen Bobby Kennedy. I mean, it was so powerful. I just…I found him dazzling. And so I very much became sort of a New Frontier person. Peace Corps. I had actually signed up for the Peace Corps, the first class in the Peace Corps, because of John Kennedy—ask not what we can do, ask what you can do for America—we can do for you, you do for us. But then my military, I couldn’t get a deferment. It got very confused, so I ended up going to military service.
00:39:58 But that’s how at least…I just…I found it was such a change from the Eisenhower years. You felt like these were people like your contemporaries almost, they were so young.
Carmen: Right. Yeah, that must have been incredible to experience at that age.
Paul: Yeah, that was an awakening for me and maybe for others. That’s one other thing I mentioned, but… And I appreciated, and not everyone felt the Kennedys were their type of person, but for me it was. Still is, you know. I mean, Dallas was so powerful. It still… I never got over it. I was…I think… And I was in the army, and I was able to get…they shut down all the bases. I got out. I was in Richmond, stationed in Richmond.
00:40:58 And I got out in time to drive up to stand in front of his coffin. I walked, you know, I got in this long, long line. Hours with people from all over the country. And I just stood there. It was cold. It was November, November 22, 1963. So that’s… And then of course you get to the other assassinations, M.L. King and Bobby, too. I mean, it was sort of a brutal time. For an idealist. Boy.
Carmen: Yeah. And to have come right out of college at a time that you describe as being idyllic, or in a bubble.
Paul: Right, because we were like in this bubble and then all of a sudden the world hit us, you know. And I’ve got many friends who, it hit them in different ways, but it couldn’t…
00:41:59 And then we went through the ‘60s, which was a… You know, and I was by then in law school, and I was actually pretty, you know, actually had a job, practiced law, so I was not, you know, doing a lot. I did some legal work against the war, but not so active in that. Had a child, and… I was a little even, you know, in a way, I guess, past. I got the sort of ‘50s world and then the ‘60s, not just starting with the ‘60s, which people came in a little later to… So there was turmoil from the get-go on college campuses.
Carmen: Right. You had a kind of different perspective. You saw the end of one and the beginning of another.
Paul: Yeah, yeah. And it was only really after I graduated, as I was saying. We didn’t really…these major social issues didn’t hit us as hard.
Carmen: Wow. That’s fascinating. And it’s a good perspective to have, especially when we look back on all these different periods of time at William & Mary, to have those kind of details, that the ‘50s so drastically differed from the ‘60s. And I’m sure that was the case even on campus here. So before we go into your trajectory following your time as a student here, I wanted to ask you some broad questions about your time here, first being if you have any absolutely favorite memories of your time here at William & Mary.
Paul: Well, I had a very good, very lovely girlfriend, Barbara Beckman. And then she—so she was a really good memory. I haven’t seen her in many years. And I had good friends from a variety of different backgrounds. Some football players. Jim Porach, who became the captain of the football team.
00:44:03 And just good friends who stayed, you know, I’ve stayed friends with my whole life. And I think in my academic life the…I mentioned LeRoy Smith as probably the most influential teacher, because he took an interest in my writing and sort of was interested in what I became. So that was really important. And then, you know, still the King’s Arms. I remember, you know, the people who worked there and managed the place.
00:44:56 So there are a lot of…there are a lot of…have to pull them all together, but there are a lot of important moments that this place provided. That’s why you like coming back. The other thing is it doesn’t change. I mean, the campus, we got, you know, put on a…kind of built up the stadium and we have these new buildings, but it’s still very much the way it is, the old campus.
Carmen: Absolutely. Yeah, I guess the footprint might change a little bit, but generally you still have the Sunken Gardens and—
Paul: Yeah, yeah, all the good places that you remember, yeah. Sorority row is still there. Now the lodges are gone. In fact when I was president I had to take down some of the lodges or convert them to other—you know, that’s because we built the student center. In fact, Pi Lamb lodge went in service of the student center, and the SAU lodge, and the Lambda Chi lodge, so—
Carmen: A worthy cause.
Paul: A worthy cause.
Carmen: And there is still the one, even though it’s a coffee shop now. There is still the one lodge there.
Paul: Oh, really?
Carmen: There’s just—yep, there’s one left standing strong there, so…
Paul: Is that at the end?
Carmen: Yeah, it’s at the very end there. They’re building the new wellness center behind it and the Sadler Center is beside it.
Paul: I’ll have to walk over there.
Paul: And just see it and remember what it was. I wonder what that…I’ll have to remember. I used to know what all the… And you would identify people by fraternities or sororities. It’s funny. I think it was time to grow out of that, but at the time it was a lot of…really enjoyable to have connections like that.
Carmen: Definitely. I was wondering—I mentioned this to you earlier—but you were voted most eligible bachelor. What was that about?
Paul: I don’t remember that at all. That’s interesting. Who did that?
Carmen: It was printed in the “Flat Hat.”
Carmen: There was…oh, what was it? There was something, a show or an event during which you were voted most eligible bachelor.
Carmen: And it was printed in the “Flat Hat.”
Paul: Well, it must be true then. Yeah, well, you know. I didn’t stay a bachelor that long. After I got in the army I got married. So that’s good to be eligible. That means people are interested in you. Yeah, that must have been…all right, I’ll accept it.
Carmen: [Laughs.] Not the worst title to be given during your college time.
Paul: No, right, right, right.
Carmen: Well, great. So I want to flip that question on its head and actually ask you what are some difficult experiences you recall during your time as a student here.
Paul: Well, mostly you recall good things. You know, I think maybe what I described to you about going to see the admiral was what you might call difficult. I managed to get along pretty well here. I mean, I felt comfortable here. And I had friends. The other thing is I had friends of like different political persuasions, and athletes or non-athletes, and I had a range of friends, from the North, from the South, you know.
00:48:59 I mixed it up with the KAs, and they were all Southerners. They would secede from the college. That was a…they would be General Lee. If you can imagine this. General Lee on his horse Traveler would come up to the president’s house and secede. That was something. Now we’re having all this controversy over Robert E. Lee’s statue. But that’s how the KAs… And that was an event every year.
Carmen: Wow. Yeah, I read a bit about that in the…
Paul: I mean, you know, when you think of that, there were some…we just lacked awareness of the world. That’s why I say we were in a little cocoon. It was benign in that we weren’t actively, you know, against anybody, but the world hadn’t really opened up. It wasn’t as cantankerous and contentious as it became later.
Carmen: I did read something, and I don’t know if this would stand out as a difficult moment or anything, but the “Flat Hat” during 1959 was printing a lot stating that that year was pretty tumultuous on campus, that there were food riots over the quality of food in the Caf, that there were panty raids, although I don’t know if you would consider those tumultuous.
Paul: [Laughs.] The last panty raid, I do have a recollection, and it involved the admiral, because the admiral—Paschall became president I think my senior year, but the admiral—and maybe my junior year—was still president, and we had a panty raid on one of the dorms. I remember this was all cooked up.
00:50:56 And the girls were cooperating and they were going to throw their panties out the first room. But the admiral got word of it, and he had a dog, a big black dog, and he was going around taking names. And he had Dean Lambert with him. So they wanted to stop this thing. And so we were like being identified. [Laughs.] But it was totally out of control. And I remember the admiral, you know, he was in his bathrobe with his dog is my recollection, trying to sort of calm everybody down.
But the students were determined to go to the dorm. We got in the dorms, you know, went up two floors, and mostly it was all…I don’t think anyone ever got hurt or even got in trouble, but maybe someone did. But that, I believe, might have been the last panty raid. I think I mentioned that to my class to remind them that we were—that’s another—can you imagine, when they have coed dorms?
Paul: Took…got rid of the need for panty raids or whatever that was that we did. So that’s another thing. It’s like, you know, funny.
Carmen: What was the ultimate goal there?
Paul: I don’t…you had to secure a pair of panties somehow, right? So hopefully it wasn’t on anybody. It was just that they would, girls would give you… So then you were successful. That was the trophy. It was pointless. It was like, what do they…you know, how many eating contests or something, stupid stuff.
Carmen: Oh, yeah, these hot dog eating contests or something.
Paul: Right, right. I mean, that’s what we did.
Carmen: Right. Wow.
Paul: So the “Flat Hat” mentioned that, yeah. I should look at those “Flat Hats.”
Carmen: They have a lot of good stuff in there. And then you, of course, can see the thing about the most eligible bachelor, so you’ll be able to verify that. I did have one other note about that maybe the last panty raid, though, that that following weekend, or some following weekend after that there was vandalism of state cars and students went and emptied all the fire extinguishers in the halls and made a big mess. I don’t know if you recall anything about that.
Paul: I don’t really recall that. I mean, I don’t think I was… I didn’t do anything like that. I did participate in the panty raids. Definitely I’m guilty there. But you may have been right. What was the purpose of that, did it say?
Carmen: I did not see. And I couldn’t tell if it was because of the backlash against the panty raid, or the backlash against the food riots.
Paul: Oh, well, it may have been something that…maybe the president penalized people for disobeying orders or something.
Carmen: Well, if so they took to the halls with fire extinguishers.
Paul: Yeah. Pretty tame.
Carmen: So if you don’t mind, we can move to your trajectory following your time as a student.
Paul: Oh, okay.
Carmen: So you graduated and…
Paul: I graduated and didn’t get called. And that’s when I was hoping to get into the Peace Corps. Had been approved. I was going to Colombia for the first class, which was a big deal. And I went up to see Sargent Shriver, who was just setting up then. And I asked him, I said could you get me a deferment? All I wanted to do was do my Peace Corps and then I was going to do the military. I didn’t want to avoid the military. But he said I don’t have much clout. You can go over to the Pentagon.
When I went over they said no way, you’re going on, and you can’t fool with that obligation. That’s a legal obligation. So I went in and I got stationed at Fort Lee, Virginia. My friend Jim Porach and I shared a BOQ, a basic officer’s quarters in Fort Lee.
00:55:01 Trained as a quartermaster officer. Then got sent to the Defense General Supply Center in Richmond, which was a four services. Secretary McNamara, Defense Secretary, had this idea that all the services should have common supplies served, and I was in there. And I thought I was going to get out in six months, but then the Cuban missile crisis occurred. And we were in a post that packed parachutes, and they thought they were going to drop the Airborne in to Cuba, which never happened.
But anyway, I got extended to two years, and then I was about to get out. Or maybe it’s the other way around. Maybe that was the Berlin Wall crisis I got two years, and then when I was about to get out I had the Cuban missile crisis, ’62, yeah. The Berlin Wall I think was ’61, ’62. So then I got extended. Anyway, so I had three years of service almost.
00:56:02 And then, but then I decided to apply to law school. I had this friend in Richmond who said, you know, you’d make a good lawyer, you really ought to think about it. So I really didn’t have any other plans. The military was a good thing for me because it gave me some structure after college. I don’t know what I would have done if I… You know, some of my friends went to IBM, and those were big, important jobs.
I would have gone to graduate school in English. That was my plan. And I did think about that. And I might have become an English professor, since I admired those professors. But military changed, sort of held that up, and then law became…for me was a great thing. And law school at Virginia was really good to me. I did well and got a great job in Wall Street after that, a big law firm.
00:57:03 And that’s… Then was married and had a baby, Tara, who’s now 50 years old, just turned 50, and lives in Marin County, California, where we go see her and her daughter. But in those days I started and Fran, my wife and I, had Tara, we went to New York, stayed there for a while and then decided to go into teaching, law teaching, at Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
New York was…well, it was very…it was, you know, a different, very challenging life, legal practice in New York. Hundred hour weeks were not unheard of. And, you know, big cases, the antitrust cases and things. So I learned a lot. It was important structurally to be able to do these things, you know.
00:58:04 It’s a long way from college. So then teaching. Then into…after teaching I went into administration. I did dean of the law school at Tulane and then was selected to come here. A lot in between all that. One of the things I did, you know, I was talking about civil rights.
While I was in New York I worked for the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights, and we spent time in the South in monitoring desegregation orders. It became a very important aspect of my own development, and still is, really. I saw the importance of fairness, treatment. You know, we’re seeing a lot of this play again with all the stuff about the civil, you know, with the South, just the South, was it a lost cause or was it about race. And so it’s amazing how it still bubbles up.
Carmen: It’s very interesting how these same issues…
Paul: They don’t go away.
Carmen: Continue to play out, yeah.
Paul: They don’t go away, you know.
Carmen: So you became president here. And we definitely want to cover that side. But we will do that in a subsequent interview, if that’s fine with you.
Paul: That’s fine.
Carmen: So you were the president here, and let’s hop over that and then talk about right after your presidency and then your career since.
Paul: You mean after the presidency?
Carmen: Yes, so after you were president here you then went to the American Automobile Association.
Paul: I did. I took that as a…it was an opportunity for…well, financially it was good, and it was a large organization, 40 million people, and they wanted me to reorganize it.
01:00:00 They had all these clubs around and all. You know what it is, it’s Triple A. And it was good. I did it for three years. It wasn’t fulfilling for me because I’m more of an academic. I missed academics, honestly. Once I left practice, you know, I liked writing, I liked teaching, all the challenges that… And it gave meaning to my life, really, to be an academic. And that’s why university administration was appealing.
So that’s what I did. I went to Triple A. Then from there I went back to teaching. I was at Penn. I then got remarried and my wife became president of the University of Pennsylvania. And I did some law school work, first at Penn and then at Cardozo Law School in New York, where I spent time.
01:01:00 I commuted from Philadelphia. And these were important things to do.
Carmen: And then of course under President Obama’s administration you were…
Paul: Yes, and then it was very nice because my field was administrative law and regulation is what I wrote about, and so then I got this presidential appointment, which was really nice. Came at a wonderful time because, you know, I had…my wife was very busy, too, so we could…I could commute to Washington, which is really basically what I did. I was four days a week and so in Washington.
And I admired the President, and we had a very good mission. We were trying to improve the way government worked. That’s my book I just was talking about, as you know, you were there, is about this, what I learned, actually, in government.
Carmen: Fascinating. I need to read that book, by the way.
Paul: Oh, you could—
Carmen: After hearing the speech.
Paul: Yeah, sure. If it inspires you I wish you would.
Carmen: Well, it’s particularly relevant. I mean, it’s always relevant, but it is in this—
Paul: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot going on today that… I’ve decided I’m an institutionalist. I believe in institutions like universities. This place really matters. Good universities, right? That’s just how you structure, you know, your culture and your community. And government is an institution that matters. You know, you can’t deal with…if it’s not a…if you’re not doing well with government, you’re not doing well by the people. And that’s what you’re supposed to do, right?
Carmen: Yes, I would say so. That is what you’re supposed to do, we would hope. So yeah, so your whole life has sounded so busy, especially post college, and I’m just wondering how you’ve seen your William & Mary education or your time here and your socialization play out in all those different parts of your life, how it shaped your trajectory.
Paul: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s because things… I became aware of things, you know, here. And you don’t start out like that, but in the course of that. And the fact that I was on my own and worked, and met different kinds of people was very important. But that’s what college is for everybody. That’s why it’s important to have a residential experience where you meet people, and you grow, and you make mistakes.
So that’s why it’s important to come back. I mean, the whole notion of the alumni houses, you know, doesn’t exist in places that don’t have really a residential tradition.
01:04:00 Because what you remember is more the non-classroom, the relationships of your friends, and all the education that goes on outside. And so I think it, I would say, it prepared me. Or at least it made me ready or receptive to doing some other things and being somebody, and working hard. I think that’s true of my classmates.
Carmen: Great. Well, come back you have. I mean, I have an extensive list of the ways beyond your presidency, beyond serving as the 24th president, that you’ve stayed involved. You’ve been on reunion gift committees, and the Public Policy Advisory Board, and your class’s reunion committee, and the Foundation Gifts Committee, and the business school foundation. What has led you to be so engaged?
Paul: Well, I feel like I owe… You know, when I became president I think what I found was responsibility, and then when I left I, you know, didn’t want to leave everything. And had some regrets about leaving, actually, because it’s such a wonderful place. So that I felt I should be continuing to do what I can do, which is, you know, help in some ways, and stay involved. I’ve always liked to follow up with other presidents. You become a small group that you know.
Carmen: Yeah, nobody else can relate to that experience except for you all.
Paul: Yeah, so it’s… I still feel like I have a responsibility, in some ways, for the place. I want it to do well. To be as good as it can possibly be. Like your children, you know. That’s what you ask of your children, too. It’s good.
Carmen: Yeah. No, definitely. That’s a powerful reflection, it is, to feel like you just want it to continue to thrive even after your time here comes to an end. So we mentioned earlier that Williamsburg kind of stays the same, but I’m sure there are some differences, if not in the actual footprint, then maybe in how William & Mary functions that you’ve seen. What kind of changes have you seen since you initially came here as a student?
Paul: Well, it is a much more complex and interesting place. When I was a student graduate programs were not that significant. And then when I became president, I realized that we were a university, not a college. I mean, just look at the law school. When I was a student, the law school was in the basement of my dormitory, Bryan Dormitory. It was almost a forgotten place. It was this little… And it didn’t have many students. It didn’t have any resources.
01:06:57 And the college didn’t treat it well because it was mostly concerned about arts and sciences and undergraduates. And I guess there was an MBA program. I don’t have any recollection too much of it, either. And there were a few graduate programs, but no Ph.D.s. And now we have Ph.D.s in high energy physics, and I started the American studies Ph.D., which is a very prominent program.
Paul: And so we’re much more of a complex institution. Even though we all, the alumni really…it’s all about undergraduate, as I said, because those are the years that matter most to you. But in terms of what we turn out as a product, we’re now doing many more things than we ever did. Which is…I would say how many institutions could claim to have evolved in the way that we did over these years, you know, in a high level, quality way, and have good education at all levels. Without a lot of resources.
Paul: You know. We don’t have the endowments of the big schools, but we’re doing all right. This campaign we’re going to be real fine. We’re going to have a billion dollar endowment before it’s over, and that’s pretty impressive.
Carmen: It’s kind of hard to believe. It’s just so…it’s just a big thing. It’s a big deal.
Paul: Yeah. No, we’re a big deal. We should be. That’s how we should view ourselves. But we should be humble.
Carmen: Well, yes, yes.
Paul: It’s always good to know secretly. You just don’t…you don’t go around trumpeting it.
Carmen: Absolutely. Are there any changes you would like to see that you haven’t seen yet?
Paul: Well, I believe we’re moving in the right direction. I mean, some things I wish we could have done yesterday. And I think a lot of it has to do with resources. And we all want to be able to support the programs that matter. But no, you know.
I remember I worked for the president of Penn. He was president of Tulane then and then became president of Penn, Sheldon Hackney, and I was his dean of…he hired me as dean of the law school. And Sheldon said to me, you know—and Tulane had resources problems. Still does. But he said, Paul, you know, it’s nice being president of a university, but the only problem is, is money.
01:10:00 And I think that’s what you could say about William & Mary. Now it’s almost a compliment, right, because, I mean, after all, money is just money, but the other things, the more important things are there. The university, the college that is a university, has these things, including people who work here, and believe in it, and alumni, and it’s solid. So it’s nice to have problems that—I guess he said it’s nice to have problems that only money can solve.
Carmen: Yeah. That’s an interesting way to think about it, but yeah.
Paul: Right? Yeah, that’s what I think.
Carmen: You have the rest of it in order.
Paul: Yeah. So this place does that.
Paul: Does that. Good leadership.
Carmen: So we’re coming down to the…there’s just a few questions left.
Paul: All right.
Carmen: You’ve given us so much of your time, and your whole day has been so busy, so we will get to it. But is there anything you would like people to know about you or about William & Mary that they should know but they don’t?
Paul: [Laughs.] Well, I mean, my sense of myself is that there are aspects of me that, things I didn’t do that I might have wanted to do. Like music has always been important in my life, and I never really got to fulfill that. My father played the piano, and he was very good, and I never could. Because he came from Holland, and he had a piano teacher. And I always admired that, but I could never emulate it.
So I have frustrations and things I couldn’t have done and I would have liked to have done. But maybe they would have…you know, you can’t do everything, so… And I think my life, I’ve done about all I can do, really, given my limitations and opportunities, and capacities. So I’m pretty good on that score.
01:12:12 For the college, though, it’s… It doesn’t get enough credit sometimes. I mean, the people that know it, insiders, and people at other universities admire our students, I know. But it’s…I’d like to see it get more credit. It deserves it.
Carmen: Well, maybe that’s coming.
Paul: Yeah. That’s right. It’ll happen. But thank you for your work and…
Carmen: Oh, well, thank you very much. I was going to…well, actually, if you don’t mind, I want to ask one more thing, and then I want to open it up to you to add anything, any last thoughts.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah, that’s all right.
Carmen: So I mentioned earlier in this that we’re in the midst of the celebration for 50 years of African Americans in residence, and then next year we’re starting to celebrate a hundred years of coeducation. Again, it’s so wild to think—
Carmen: Yeah. It’s wild to think about. And during the time you were here, again, the school hadn’t fully integrated at that point.
Paul: I hadn’t realized that.
Paul: Now I thought when we came back—well, maybe that is a hundred years—when we reopened it was a school for women, wasn’t it?
Paul: Oh, that’s when it was. Oh, really?
Paul: So before that there were no women?
Carmen: If there had been—
Paul: There weren’t…well, it wasn’t…it was like a private school.
Carmen: So yeah, 100 years. Isn’t that wild?
Paul: A hundred years of women. That’s funny.
Carmen: A hundred years of women at the school and 50 years of African Americans at the school, and—
Paul: Well, that’s great. In the same year?
Carmen: Well, it’s this year, from 2017 to 2018 we’re celebrating the 50th anniversary of African Americans in residence, and then in 2018 we pick up the 100 year celebration and carry it on until 2019, so it’s going to be a period of celebration, for sure.
Paul: So one thing I should add about African Americans.
Paul: When I was president my assistant was Reggie Clark. Reggie Clark, who I have a hard time locating—he’s still alive—was the first African American scholarship athlete at William & Mary. You can look it up. Look up Reggie Clark. He was an NCAA 800 meter champion, I think. He was a very fine track star. And became…was…I became very close to Reggie because he was so good to the family and he was, you know, important relationships with students, and he gave me good advice. So he must have been, I’m thinking, ’64, sixty… He probably wasn’t in the first class because the first scholarships maybe were years. But it would have been in that area. Reggie Clark.
Paul: I established a scholarship for him in track, in his name.
Paul: Because I really felt, you know, his importance to the school as well as as an individual to me.
Carmen: I’ll absolutely look into that.
Paul: Yeah. He’s pretty notable.
Carmen: Sure, sure. So considering there were individuals like Reggie, and then the time period you were here, when women still had dress regulations and African Americans were not fully allowed to even be on this campus as students, and now we’re celebrating these anniversaries of that time, can you offer any reflections on what you see as the value of diversity and inclusion or the value of women and their contributions on campuses like William & Mary?
Paul: Well, when I came here the story was that women were the smart ones. I don’t know if you ever heard that. But in my day the women who came to William & Mary were really good students. Men, some were, some were not, but the women were almost uniformly smart.
And I guess that’s because Virginia didn’t, UVA didn’t take women. They didn’t take women until ’72. By the way, speaking of anniversaries, so ’72, they’re going to have like maybe their 50 years of women as opposed to our hundred. We were the place that women in Virginia, if you were a Virginian, really had to go. Mary Washington was UVA’s women’s college.
Paul: Right? So then the question was would you rather come to William & Mary, which, you know, was better in many ways, I’m sure. So that’s very critical for us. The men obviously could have gone to more places, including VMI, which women couldn’t go to until very recently. It’s an interesting thing.
The story of development—and I think you have to throw Title IX in, the way the women have been able to use athletics to expand their horizons. Law. When I was in law school there were three women at the University of Virginia, and one black student of a class of 250. Something. Think about that.
Paul: So now women are more than 50% of most law school classes and, you know, are… And so those are career tracks.
01:17:58 And just from a human resources point of view, a society that can utilize all of its people, productivity. That’s why we have those big productivity gains in years. We don’t have them anymore because women are not entering the workforce. They are in fact leaving the workforce a little bit, if you look at the statistics.
Whereas there was that great boost in the ‘60s and ‘70s when women entered, went to graduate schools and became more professional, could serve in the military, things that are notable. I mean, when you think about these other societies where women are so suppressed that it’s such a waste of human potential. Looked at just from that perspective alone, you know?
Carmen: Definitely. So if you don’t have any other thoughts on that—
Paul: All right.
Carmen: You’ve answered all my questions, so I want to open it up to you. Is there anything you thought I would ask that I didn’t or that you want to add at this point?
Paul: I’m really pretty well talked out.
Carmen: I know it’s a long process.
Paul: Things sparked me on, but I had enough. I think I’ve done enough.
Carmen: [Laughs.] That’s perfectly fine. Well, we appreciate it.
Paul: For the archives.
Carmen: We appreciate it so much.
Paul: Thank you, archives.
Carmen: This was really enjoyable. Thanks again.
Paul: Thank you very much, Carmen. Appreciate it.
01:19:34 [End of recording.]
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