William & Mary

Interviewee: Ruth Weimar Tillar

Interviewer: Sarah Glosson

Interview Date: July 27, 2016                   Duration: 01:32:02

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Sarah:              Good morning. This is Sarah Glosson interviewing Ruth Tillar in her home in Emporia, Virginia. It’s July 27, 2016. Ruth graduated from William & Mary in 1945 and has been awarded the prestigious Alumni Medallion for her enthusiasm for William & Mary. And before we talk about your time at the college, tell me a little bit about your family background. You were originally from Illinois, I think.  

Ruth:               That’s correct.

Sarah:              But you lived in Kansas. Kansas was your home when you came to William & Mary, right?

Ruth:               It was. My father was living in Kansas at that time. He had retired. And so I never actually felt that was my home except to visit there. I was born in Marion, Illinois and my grandparents were all from Girard, Kansas, though.

00:00:59          I was back and forth to Kansas through my lifetime as a little girl growing up. And when my father retired, he did choose to go back to Kansas. So then I was back again in Kansas after I graduated from William & Mary. And I had a…I wanted to be an airline stewardess with TWA, and I had applied for that and had been accepted.

And I was engaged at the time. So at the time that I was ready to go to class I changed my mind about being an airline stewardess and instead decided there would be a wedding, so that happened in Kansas City, Missouri, a wedding did. But going back to my family, my parents, my father was in the mining industry, and his headquarters were mostly in Chicago, so I was in and out of Chicago all through my lifetime, too.

00:02:04          And also, not only was he in the mining industry, but he had three brothers that followed him in that career. They all graduated from the University of Missouri. And so that was my earliest memories of being either in Illinois or Kansas.

And then when I was about five years old my parents moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and I just thoroughly enjoyed Pittsburgh, and that’s where I was living when I went to William & Mary. I went to school there in the early grades, and then for my high school I was at a school in Pittsburgh called Winchester Thurston. And at that time it was a girls school. Actually, it was a boarding school, too, and I was a boarding student.

00:03:03          Now it is no longer a boarding school. It is no longer just a girls school, it’s a coed school. So I have been back and forth many times to Pittsburgh to attend class reunions and visit with friends, and some of us are still in touch with each other regularly and see each other.

In fact one of my classmates was here about a year ago to do a program for me for the Rotary because she is an author and had written a book that she reviewed for us that day. And my roommate is living in Alexandria. We talk to each other at least about every week, so we’re still very close. She was from East Liverpool, Ohio originally. And so Pittsburgh has been a very important part of my life.

00:03:55          So when it was time to think college, my mother had just died that year of 1941 in February, so my dad said now where would you like to go to college? And I had been in a camp for several years in Vermont, and it was a girls camp about 20 miles from the Canadian border in Barton, Vermont. And I just loved this camp. Thoroughly enjoyed everything about it. And had made many friends there.

Well, the camp happened to be owned and operated by Richmond people, so I thought I was with these young friends from the deep South—[laughs]—and I enjoyed getting to know them. One of my closest friends there was Anne Freeman, and her family would come to visit for a week each summer we were in camp. And I thought these must be royalty from Richmond because they were getting so much attention getting ready for them.

00:05:00          Well, at the time I didn’t realize exactly who her father was, but he was the author Douglas Southall Freeman, and also in the newspaper industry. So I did get to know her older sister, who was married to [Leslie Cheek]. And she had a younger brother. So it was always exciting when they came to the camp for a week each summer.

And I was happy to have friends from the camp that I enjoyed all through my lifetime. I’m still in touch with one of them today. I was recently invited to a luncheon at the Commonwealth Club at the reunion for former campers of Songadeewin of Keewaydin, was the name of the camp. And so it’s nice to know that that’s still a part of my life, too, as well as my school in Pittsburgh.

00:06:05          But now, coming into my life, was something even more important. So I told my father I’d been reading about a college in Virginia called William & Mary. Oh, I was definitely set to go to Virginia. Whatever school I picked, I wanted it to be in Virginia. And he said you better have another one in mind. I said, well, it isn’t in Virginia, but I’ll consider Duke. So he said, well, I’ll take you to William & Mary.

So we had an interview with Dean Lambert. And Dean Lambert said to my father, after we had had a tour of the campus and a nice visit with him, he said now Mr. Weimer, I can’t tell you today if your daughter’s accepted—this was a Friday—he said, but I’ll call you Monday morning and let you know if she’s accepted.

00:07:00          And so as we were walking to the car after we left Dean Lambert’s office, my father said, are you ready to go see Duke? I said, no, take me home. I want to wait for that telephone call. Sure enough, early Monday morning the call came. Dean Lambert said to my father, now the good news is your daughter’s accepted, but the bad news is we’ve taken in 20 more freshmen girls than we have room for in the dormitories so we’re going to have another plan for them, and we will put them in faculty homes, and your daughter may live in my home, at our home.

And I was so thrilled to think that I was going to live in the home of the Dean of Admissions, and I already felt like he was such a good friend. And later, when I was introduced to his wife Anne, well, we became friends for lifetime.

00:08:01          They were so important in my life, not only that semester in their home, but also throughout all of my college years. And after graduation I never went to Williamsburg but what I either saw them at their home or stopped by his office. So it’s been very exciting to know that their grandson, Matthew Lambert, is on the campus, too, and I tell him sometimes I think you’re my grandson, too. Very nice young man, and I’ve enjoyed getting to know him.

Sarah:              That’s lovely. What was Dean Lambert like?

Ruth:               Well, to me he was just so friendly, and always—he was…living in his home I found that he was expecting me to obey the same rules that were applied to the dorm, and actually all campus women, and I did respect that.

00:09:03          But then when I was just sitting with them in their living room or kitchen, it was just like a totally different person. I felt so comfortable and at home with both of them. And they just went out of their way to, I think, make my life so special with them because firstly, every Sunday I was invited to have lunch with them during that semester. Then after I moved into the dorm they said, now that still stands. You’re to have lunch with us every Sunday, which I did.

And then they said and any time you have any questions that you think we could help you with or any problem—not problems, necessarily, but any advice you might need, we’d be happy for you to come and talk to us.

00:09:58          So I was beginning to think about joining organizations, and I had already joined Kappa Alpha Theta. We were rushed during the first week of school, during orientation. And so I thought, well, I’ll just enjoy being with Dean Lambert and Anne whenever I can.

And so this particular visit with them, or particularly with him, I said, Dean Lambert, I just can’t quite decide whether to get involved with the Flat Hat or join the French Club, or I mentioned two or three other things. He said just join them all. So I’m still doing that today. [Laughs.] If there’s some new club that comes into my life, I’m still joining. So I think his advice was very good for my lifetime.

00:11:01          And so I…but to answer your question, I just found both of them so comfortable to be with. And I was talking to Matthew about his dad one day, his granddad, and he said you’re the only person—you’re not really the only person, but you seem to be a person who just really did adore my grandfather. [Laughs.] And he said some of these boys don’t talk that way. Well, of course he was Dean of Men as well as Dean of Admissions.

So anyway, I’m glad that I had them in my life for as many years as I did. And one of my last visits with him before he went into the nursing home, he called me by name and asked me some questions about what I was doing, and so I felt like that was my last visit with him. But I did have many with Anne after that.

00:12:00          And so then I enjoyed getting to know their children. As a matter of fact, my son and Charles, Matthew’s father, were born near the same time, and my daughter and Louise were born near the same time, so we were sending baby gifts back and forth, and wedding gifts, and whatever. In those days, of course, we were writing letters to each other, and I really treasure the letters from Anne. They were very special. And so I think probably that was the most important thing that happened to me when I first entered William & Mary, was having them in my life.

Sarah:              I imagine that really shaped your first experiences at William & Mary. What were your first impressions of the campus when you first saw it?

00:12:56

Ruth:               Oh, I thought it was so beautiful. I just was in love with it from the very first minute I saw it. And thanks to him for showing it to me the first time, too, because my dad and I had a nice walk with him. And then I was…well, I was so im… Everything that happened at orientation week was so exciting, and I still have very happy memories of all of it.

And one of the memories I have is the first convocation our class attended, I mentioned to you about my camp in Vermont and my friend Anne Freeman. Well, her father was the speaker at that convocation. And I thought, well, this is really like old times being with him again because he used to visit at our camp in Vermont.

00:13:55          So I would say that that week everything I did just seemed to make my beginnings at William & Mary so special. We were told there would be a banquet for us, a freshman banquet, and we were going to have Southern fried chicken and Smithfield ham. Well, I’d had fried chicken, but I never had Southern fried chicken or Smithfield ham, so that night I wasn’t a bit disappointed with that dinner. I thought it was excellent.

Also one of the young men who spoke, who was on the President’s council or a President’s aide, I thought, my goodness, I certainly would like to have a date with him. [Laughs.] Well, I heard he was president of the French Club, so I went to a meeting to join the French Club, and when I was paying my dues, he was accepting the dues that night.

00:15:02          I had a bill that was, I think it was like $20, and the dues were probably like three or five or something like that. He said, you know, I’ll carry you to the drug store tomorrow and we’ll get this changed. [Laughs.] So that was the beginning of dating him for a year. [Laughs.]

Sarah:              What was his name?

Ruth:               Edgar Fisher. And he was from New York City. His father was a professor at Columbia. And the parents came to visit him, and they invited me to go on a trip with them, so I got to know his parents. And he was an only child like I was. But anyway, we had a—and then he graduated. But one of the highlights of my William & Mary experiences…well, many of them were dances, but I’ll get back to the other dances. I’ll tell you about this one first.

00:16:00          This was final dances, and this would have been in 1942. He was graduating. The final dances were out in the sunken garden. It took them several months to prepare for that dance. They built a dance floor out on the sunken garden. They built bleachers for the city people to come and watch.

And we had Tony Pastor’s band, so there was a dance on Friday night, a tea dance on Saturday. Tea dances were very popular in those days, and they started about 5:00 in the afternoon. And then that night there was another big formal dance. So to be on that dance floor out in the sunken garden under the moon and under the stars was just fabulous.

00:17:04          And one other thing that impressed me that night was they had an urn that was probably about seven feet tall that was out in the center of the dance floor. It was filled with magnolia blossoms. So I made up my mind that night someday I was going to have a magnolia tree. I have a magnolia tree. It’s taller than my house. And I’ve enjoyed it through the years. But that dance was when I decided I just had to have a magnolia tree.

Sarah:              It sounds very magical.

Ruth:               Yes. And they even…even the blossoms were filled around this huge, tall vase. Very, very special. Well, anyway, it was… Do you know they didn’t have that dance again for many, many years because wartime prevented them getting ready for it like they had.

00:18:01          I’ve never really known the exact history. I think they tried it again later, but it never worked out to continue. And you can understand why, weather, etc. But anyway, I’m glad I got in on the last really big one that they had. And so that was…

And as I say, dances were very important to us as freshmen. We had September of 1941, October and November, and until December 7^th we had a very, very normal freshman life on the campus. As I say, we were joining extracurricular activities. But we were dancing at Blow Gym on Friday nights.

00:19:00          On Saturday night we went to The Lodge and danced. On Sundays we went to The Inn to tea dances. And of course there were the big dances like the… One of the biggest ones that I first went to was the homecoming dance. And they had transformed Blow Gym into a Southern plantation atmosphere. And it was just a very special dance. Well, it was Friday night, Saturday afternoon and Saturday night.

But that particular weekend, as a member of Kappa Alpha Theta, I rode on the Kappa Alpha Theta float for the parade. So I had been in an evening dress on Friday night for the dance. On the float I was in an evening dress. And then I was in a third evening dress Saturday night for the other dance that was taking place for homecoming weekend.

00:20:02          So that’s a very special memory, too, of the homecoming weekend.

Sarah:              I’m curious what makes a tea dance? So you said they start 5:00 or so?

Ruth:               Yeah, about 5:00 in the afternoon. I think it’s just another way of a band, of a big name band, which they were in those days—Vaughn Monroe was the one that we had for the homecoming weekend—I think it was just another way of them being a part of the weekend. And a tea dance was…it was just an afternoon dance. I mean, it didn’t have any other significance that I remember.

Sarah:              Did you wear something different to a tea dance from in the evening?

Ruth:               The tea dances that we went to at The Inn, we were kind of dressed like in Sunday clothes.

00:21:00          But the tea dances that took place at the time of big dance campus dances, we dressed casually for them. And so they were…we were formal for Friday night, casual for Saturday afternoon, and back formal again for Saturday night.

In recent years, in California they have gone back to tea dances, I understand, and they’ve been very successful with them. And then another friend of mine that was from my Pittsburgh life, a man I used to date there, he was stationed out in Arizona, and he decided to retire there. And when he retired there, he was also very interested in dances, so he helped with a dance club there.

00:21:58          And they had tea dances. So they weren’t lost forever. But I haven’t heard of one at William & Mary for many, many years—well, at all since I was there.

But those first three months we were just going to pep rallies, and football games, and as I say, joining other groups on campus, getting acquainted as freshmen with each other, and just having a ball. I’ve already told you about how we spent Friday nights and Saturday afternoons, and Saturday night and sometimes Sunday afternoons. So it was just a fabulous life. And I’m so glad we had those few months to know what college life was really like. But after Pearl Harbor our lives changed.

00:22:59          And we were saying…our boys were leaving pretty quickly. And we would go to the train station most every day to wave goodbye to another group leaving the campus to go into the service.

And then it was time for us to get busy. And so we had a war council for the women, and we were called WAMs, War Activity Members. And we immediately started projects such as going to the Methodist Church, then Methodist Church tower to spot aircraft. I’d carry my books up there to study and watch for any aircraft that might be coming by. Fortunately, I never saw an enemy plane, so that was the good news.

00:23:58          But we did have—another thought that comes to mind—that we did the sunbathing at Barrett Hall. There was a place that we could go out a window in our bathing suits. And some of those planes from Fort Eustis used to come low and slow—[laughs]—over the sunbathers.

But going back to the things that we did to help with the war effort. I think one of the most important was on campus we would have little booths and be selling war bonds. We also sold stamps for war bonds. When you got so many stamps, you had a war bond. So we would say “please buy our stamps for war bonds and lick the other side.”

00:24:56          And I think that was probably one… There was giving dances for servicemen who were stationed near campus. We had the stamps. We just had…well, they all had a name, and we had very fun dances for them. Got to know a lot of nice young men who were stationed there.

In fact our life changed in that way, too, because we had been used to dating campus friends, and there were the dances I mentioned and football games, that type thing. But along came all these servicemen, young officers. And they were taking us out to dinner, to what was the most important restaurant to us in those days. It was called the Travis House. And the building is still in Williamsburg.

Sarah:              Where is it? What is it now?

00:25:58

Ruth:               It’s just a building. It doesn’t have any occupants. And it is…I would say it’s near the DeWitt Wallace. Across the street kind of from the DeWitt Wallace. And it sits on the corner. But after it became a restaurant it was moved there. And as far as I know, there isn’t any…I think people maybe can tour it, but that’s it.

I’ll have to check on that when I’m in Williamsburg next time, because it was something that was very important to us. If we weren’t dining at the Travis House, we were at The Lodge dining, or at The Inn, so we just thought that was pretty great to be going out to dinner all the time to the nice restaurants in Williamsburg.

00:26:53          And so in that way our lives changed, and we met many very, very interesting people. In fact there was another connection with my camp in Vermont. One weekend a young officer came to the Theta house. His mother had some connection with the house mother there. And I was away for that weekend, and so I didn’t actually see him.

But when I got back after the weekend, my sorority sisters said oh, you should have been here this weekend. There was the handsomest young man here. He had a nice convertible. And I said, well, it sounds great. I’m sorry I missed seeing him. Where was he from? They said he was from Boston. I said you know, there’s only one boy I’ve ever known from Boston, and I knew him at the camp in Vermont.

00:28:02          But I didn’t mention that to them, I just said only one young man I’ve ever known from Boston, and his name was Bob [Kittredge]. They said that’s who it was. So I thought that was an unusual situation. And so anyway.

I think that our life as…that we were involved with doing the war work on campus. And we had a childcare agency. We sold the war bonds. We had the dances. The spotting aircraft. And many other things we did. In fact I really wonder now how we had time to go to class, we were so busy with all of those excellent things to do. And so I’m happy that we were able to contribute some to the war effort, too, as students.

00:29:00

Sarah:              How were those war efforts organized? Who sort of took charge of that, and how did you learn when it was your turn to go, for instance, to go up into the Methodist Church tower for your turn for spotting? How was that all organized?

Ruth:               It was organized because of outstanding women on campus who were leaders. They organized it. And they were in charge of different things. Like one person would be in charge of the spotting of aircraft. Another person was in charge of the childcare agency and of the bonds that we sold on campus, and of the dances we planned. There were different leaders who took these responsibilities. And so when we signed up to do something we were on a schedule. They knew, and we would find out when our turn was to climb up to the Methodist Church tower and spot aircraft.

00:30:01          So it was due to outstanding leadership on campus of the women that this all happened. And they called it a war council. And many of my friends were in those positions that I mentioned, had those responsibilities. We also knitted and collected clothing and jewelry. And I’m not sure exactly, I guess we sold it. I never got involved in that, so I’m not as… I was involved with the dances and the spotting of the aircraft, and just so proud of the fact that we had that going on on campus.

Sarah:              It was really a remarkable time for William & Mary because as you mentioned, the men, many of them enlisted and went to war.

Ruth:               Yes.

00:31:03

Sarah:              And so campus was predominantly women.

Ruth:               It was.

Sarah:              For about three years. I was looking at some old William & Mary statistics, and I think it was in your junior year your class only had nine men.

Ruth:               Really?

Sarah:              Mm-hmm.

Ruth:               I know that we started—we were the largest class that had ever entered, 550. But as you say, so many of the men left. And so at our actual graduation time we had 225, and very few men. And you said that was about my junior year.

Sarah:              I believe so, yeah

Ruth:               Okay, so those same ones would have graduated with us, the men that you saw that were nine. But many came back and finished and were part of our class.

00:32:04

Sarah:              But it certainly opened up a lot of opportunities for the women on campus, as you say, to take leadership roles.

Ruth:               Yes, it did.

Sarah:              What was that like?

Ruth:               Well, for instance, the Colonial Echo and the Flat Hat, they had only had men—and the Royalist magazine. They had only had men heading them for years, I think. But there were those of us who joined and were busy in the news department of the Flat Hat, and the same thing for the Colonial Echo. I think that we just gradually moved into higher positions.

00:32:54          I know that during my junior year I was managing editor of the Flat Hat. And I noticed that prior to my year they had moved into an… [Katie Rutherford], her name was, had the spot I had. But prior to that it had been just men as managing editors and editors, so there was a big change there.

Sarah:              Yeah. Well, I’ll want to hear more about the Flat Hat, but I have another question about what campus was like during the war. Do you think the William & Mary students during the war had a different experience from sort of the more general civilian population? What was the atmosphere like as far as wartime? Were the students, you know, concerned and worried? I mean, it must have been a little tough to be always waving goodbye at the train station to these men leaving.

00:33:58

Ruth:               Well, there was a certain amount of sadness. But I would say that we went to work to do these things that were there for us to do, and we were so busy with that that we weren’t despondent or depressed. Our lives change in the type social life we had. We still had the football games because in 1942 we didn’t lose a game that year. And that was the exciting year that I went to Dartmouth, and to Annapolis, and to the University of North Carolina.

Sarah:              To see the football games?

Ruth:               Yes, to see the games. I think I was away from the campus to go to the Dartmouth game for four days because first of all a friend of mine, who was a classmate, she had a friend at Dartmouth that she was going to be dating.

00:35:02          So we went together on a train, and we went to New York City. Her parents met us in New York City and took us to Long Island, where her parents were, and she had also grown up there. And we spent the night with her parents, and the next day they took us back into Central Station, we got on a train again, and went off to Dartmouth.

And I saw these people getting on the train with skis, and that was kind of different to see happening in another part of the United States that we didn’t identify with at that time. And so we had the several days there. Oh, one of the things that was very interesting to me was that—at Dartmouth was that of course we… Going back to the days that I was at school there.

00:36:00          We had very strict rules and regulations, which we were very happy with. They didn’t bother us one bit. We had to be in at a certain time on a Friday night, a certain time on a Saturday night, and there was no dating on Monday nights because we had…so the sororities could have their meetings then. And it didn’t bother us one bit. We were just as happy as we could be. And of course you wouldn’t have thought of going into a boys dorm. That didn’t exist back in those days, or their being in our dorms.

Well, that wasn’t true at Dartmouth. The boys lived in suites, and they had a bedroom, a living room. And so after events you could go and have refreshments in their rooms. They kept the door open. But it was just customary to be that way.

00:37:01          So that seemed quite different to me, and I’ve always thought back on it when I’ve…the way things have changed through the years—well, I got to be in a boy’s room when I was a rather—in his living room. [Laughs.]

But anyway, we had a great time that weekend. And as I say, it did take us away from the campus for a while, but we got back and got busy again with classwork. And it wasn’t as long to go to Annapolis. That was a rather quick trip. And so…and to the University of North Carolina. So I’m glad I got a chance to go to those games. And it was such an exciting year of winning all games.

Sarah:              Do you remember what time those curfews were?

00:37:52

Ruth:               It seems to me on a Friday night we had to be in at 10:00, and maybe it was 11:00 on a Saturday night. And as I say, we just…we were dancing at The Lodge. And of course we didn’t ride in cars, so no one had a car.

Except my friend that I was dating my freshman year, who was from, I think I mentioned to you, New York City. His parents had made special plans for him to have a car on campus, but not to use it on campus. It was just there for him to drive home for vacations and back. It was kept in a garage somewhere in Williamsburg. So that’s the only person I ever knew who owned a car. [Laughs.]

Sarah:              Now how did you travel back home for breaks and things?

Ruth:               Oh, that was exciting, too, because for the very first trip, I was going back to Pittsburgh for Christmas, I was so excited that I was going to fly—[laughs]—and go to Richmond and get on a plane and fly to Pittsburgh.

00:39:06          And I just loved it. And so from then on I pretty much did planes, either to Pittsburgh, or if I was going out to Kansas. I don’t think it would take too long to go on a train in those days. So I did get into flying when I was a freshman, and I did enjoy it. Maybe that’s why I thought I’d like to be an airline stewardess. I loved planes so much.

Sarah:              So how did you get involved with the Flat Hat? What made you decide you wanted to write for the newspaper?

Ruth:               Well, in high school I had…well, it goes back to my earliest days of high school. I worked on the newspaper. And there was a celebrity coming to town. I’m sure you all have never heard of him. He was a child star. His name was Jackie Cooper. He later had TV programs as an adult. And he was exactly my age. So he was going to be…

And of course in those days in local theaters in cities, you not only saw a movie, but you saw the upcoming attractions, you saw the newsreel, you saw the comedy strip, and you also had a stage performance. And so he was on the stage. So I called him to see if I could interview him, and he said yes, just come to my hotel and I’ll meet you in the lobby. So I had an interview with Jackie Cooper when I was about…well, I think we were 14.

00:41:00          He was the same age. And so that was one of my first exciting things I did for the newspaper on a high school level. And I later became…I was the managing editor for our annual in high school. And so somehow I just got involved with writing for newspaper—well, high school newspaper.

And so it just seemed natural to me, when I got to William & Mary, to want to join the newspaper as staff. And so…and it was the beginning of wonderful friendships. And we just were all so dedicated, I think, to the Flat Hat. It was very important to us.

00:42:01          And so we had a great office on one floor of an academic building. And we’d sit there for hours working together. And then when it came time for the paper to go to press after I was editor, I would just look forward to that because it was so exciting to go to the Williamsburg Gazette office and see our paper go to press. And I also enjoyed the fact that we had the opportunity to write in our Flat Hat about Colonial Williamsburg people that were very interesting to us, like the Rockefellers.

00:42:56          And I remember writing quite a few articles about them when they would be in town and making a very special presentation of some kind. And ultimately, while I was a senior, I got to have dinner with the Rockefellers, and it was really quite a wonderful experience. They were just so friendly and just felt like, you know, I was with my own parents, almost. At least they were just so down to earth, and it was really great.

Sarah:              Do you remember any conversations you had over that meal?

Ruth:               Yes. I remember that they mentioned the fact that they also, on many occasions, liked to take their guests—we didn’t do it in this case—but they liked to take their guests to dinner after dinner—I mean, excuse me—after dinner they liked to take them to the movies.

00:44:00          And of course that was our local movie theater. So they would take their guests to the movies, and then, I guess, that was the end of the evening. But my evening with them just involved dinner. But I remember them talking about it. And they talked about their home and about their family.

So through the years I just enjoyed seeing the family grow up. And I did get to meet one of the sons many years later in Roanoke. My husband and I were attending a municipal meeting there and he was the speaker, and so I got to meet both he and his wife that night. But they didn’t stay long because they were flying to Rome that night, so… [Laughs.] So it was good that I had a visit with him before dinner because they left quickly.

00:45:01

Sarah:              Very nice. You mentioned that the Flat Hat office had one floor of an academic building. Which building was that? Where was the office located for the newspaper?

Ruth:               It was Washington Hall. And it was such a nice office. And we all felt so comfortable there. We might have been crowded at times, but we…well, it was just…they were wonderful friendships.

Sarah:              Who are some people you worked with on the Flat Hat who really stood out to you?

Ruth:               Well, I think Fred Frechette, who was…he went in… He not only was very active with our Flat Hat and later became…he was also editor after I was. But he went into the newspaper business in Richmond, so he had a career of publications of books as well as newspapers in Richmond.

00:46:08          So I really… And later, a few years later, after we’d had our 50^th class reunions, we were both on the Old Guard board together. And so he came here one day to visit Cato and myself. We took him out to the country club for lunch and we talked about the Flat Hat. And as I recall, he was getting ready to write a book.

And I gathered together everything I could I thought might help him, any treasures I’d saved, and he carried them back to Williamsburg and kept them as long as he needed them. Then one day we met at a football game and he transferred it all back from his car to my car and I brought it back to Emporia. So his was a very special friendship.

00:47:04          And then I’d say another one was Nancy Groovy—we called her Groovy—Nancy Groove. She also became an editor of the Flat Hat. And there were probably…so many from my sorority also had jobs on the Flat Hat staff and were working together at the many tables that we worked at there writing articles.

And today I still write for the alumni magazine for my class, and also I write for several organizations I belong to here for the local newspaper. And I often think I’m still using those same things, the ideas that were instilled in me in my earliest days of being on the Flat Hat staff today.

00:48:02          They seem to be things that have been embedded into my memory that I think, now if I write this, I’ve got to do it just like I did it back when I was on the Flat Hat staff. [Laughs.] So it’s carried through.

Sarah:              That’s wonderful. It’s such an important part of William & Mary’s history. And the Flat Hats themselves are such a great documentation of what went on on campus in different decades. There was one big moment in the Flat Hat history that I wonder if you could talk about a little bit. It was when the editor-in-chief, Marilyn Kaemmerle, wrote a piece in favor of racial integration on campus. And at that time, of course, that piece met with a lot of resistance.

Ruth:               Yes. “Lincoln’s Job Half Done” was the title of it.

Sarah:              Right. “Lincoln’s Job Half Done,” that’s right.

00:49:00

Ruth:               I have a copy of that, as a matter of fact. And Marilyn was a very good friend of mine, too, and she was, well, quite a leader on campus, in many ways. And I think it was just a case of she was ahead of her time. She was introducing something that people in the…I was going to say the state of Virginia, but anyway, people who were more involved with, say, William & Mary that were from different areas of Virginia. There was so much opposition to it. I was just really heartbroken for her because of the criticism that she received. But she was a real trouper.

Sarah:              It’s a remarkable article that she wrote.

Ruth:               Yes, it was. And it all came true, wouldn’t you say?

Sarah:              Yes.

00:49:59

Ruth:               So many things she predicted were definitely true today and happened many…several years ago, began to happen.

Sarah:              Yeah. And one of the things about the story of the reaction to her opinion piece that I find most interesting is even though a lot of people on campus strongly disagreed with her position in favor of racial integration, it was widely expressed on campus that the Flat Hat should be allowed to have freedom of the press. Because as I understand it, there was a week in which there was no Flat Hat issued, right? I believe the college closed down the newspaper for a week.

Ruth:               You know, that isn’t as vivid to me as some other things about it. I know that we were…those of us who were close to her were very distressed.

00:51:01          But I think when it was all said and done, she received so much notoriety, in a positive way. She was offered jobs with very important newspapers and magazines because of what she…the reputation she built up about herself, and that they really wanted her. And she did go to work for them. She had several very important jobs.

And we kept up with her. I kept up with her through the years. Fred Frechette did, too. In fact he was on a trip to California and was driving and he stopped in Arizona to visit at her home, and had the nicest visit with her, and shared all about it with me.

00:51:56          In fact, I think he called me while he was there and told me how happy he was to be with Marilyn. And another happy memory I have of our being together was at our 50^th class reunion in our caps and gowns. Marilyn and I sat on the bus together going to the graduation, where we marched in with the seniors. And then we rode back to the campus together.

And I remember that day she told me, she said that anything that was adverse during that period of time was all forgiven with her because she felt so good and so happy to be back at William & Mary for our 50^th class reunion. And that made me feel so good to know that she was so happy that day, and glad to be with her classmates, and to be at William & Mary.

00:52:58

Sarah:              That’s nice to hear. You became editor-in-chief, I think, at the end of that school year, your senior year, following—

Ruth:               Yes, I did.

Sarah:              —following in the footsteps of Marilyn Kaemmerle, is that right?

Ruth:               I did. I really didn’t want to accept it, to be truthful about it.

Sarah:              Why is that?

Ruth:               Well, I guess because I cared so much about her and I felt so badly for her. But they said that…they, in a way, made me feel that I was the one to do it. They convinced me. And so I never regretted it after I did become the editor. It was a great experience. And again, there were so many special friends I had working on the newspaper staff. And I wouldn’t take anything for having had that experience in my life. I still treasure it.

00:54:02          And I think, I just, my only objection to trying to… I admired her so much, and she was so excellent as an editor that it was kind of hard for me, kind of hard to fill her shoes. [Laughs.] But once they made me feel that I was the one to do it because of my past experience with the Flat Hat, when I made the decision, I was happy.

And I was always glad that I had her friendship through the years. And she made me feel very comfortable with taking it. She did. And we were…we saw a lot of each other that year, that second half of that y ear, senior year.

00:54:55          And so I think she was a remarkable person, not only for her ability and her knowledge, but she just was so good for the college. And I’ve always been thankful that I got to have a part in her life.

Sarah:              You were so busy. I wonder how you ever had time for classes.

Ruth:               Well, I sort of wondered about that myself. [Laughs.]

Sarah:              Do you remember any favorite professors or favorite classes that you had?

Ruth:               Oh, I think Dr. Guy. And actually, my first semester at William & Mary he lived in the neighborhood, because he lived on the same street as Anne and Wilfred Lambert. So I think Dean Lambert and Anne and Dr. Guy and his wife were very close friends.

00:56:00          I mean, socially. And so sometimes, before I was going out at night, I could see that things were getting ready for a party, and the neighbors were coming. And I especially remember that Dr. Guy and his wife were with the Lamberts on so many occasions.

Sarah:              What did he teach?

Ruth:               He taught chemistry. And it was a large class, and I never heard a student say they didn’t like Dr. Guy. He was very popular. The only thing that worried me in his class was, particularly when we had an exam, I would…we had three hours and I thought, well, I’m going to take my time.

And then I’d see these people turning their papers in before I hardly got started, so I’d think I better get busy here. [Laughs.] So that was the only reaction I remember, being a little upset in his class when people started turning their papers in so early, when I thought three hours, that’s a long time, and I can take my time.

00:57:09          He was one of my favorites. There were others, too. I was very fond of our home ec teacher, and Marguerite Wynne-Roberts was another person I admired. And they had a…I majored in textiles—in home ec, but my area was textiles and clothing, and they had a little house that they—it was near the Theta house—that home ec students were supposed to live in. I think it was one semester you were supposed to live there if you were. But textiles and clothing didn’t come into that, so that wasn’t required, so I never had that experience.

00:58:00          And I didn’t want to leave the Theta house anyway. That was another thing that you asked about, dormitories. I didn’t live in a dorm. I lived at the Lamberts’ the first semester and then moved into the dorm, Chandler. And then there was an opening in the Theta house. There was a room that my roommate, Jean, and I could go into.

But it’s kind of strange about that room. When there were no more meals served at the Kappa Alpha Theta house because of World War II—that kind of got canceled, I think, in all of the sorority homes—they turned the dining room into a bedroom, so we lived in the bedroom of the…downstairs bedroom, I meant, of the Kappa Alpha Theta, with the house mothers.

00:58:58          On the first floor there was the house mother’s room and then there was the dining room, and that got changed into our bedroom. And so it was kind of… Everybody had to go through our room if they wanted to go to the kitchen. [Laughs.] But we enjoyed being in that.

And when I’m back there now and tell the current Thetas that one day I lived in this room, because that’s usually where the parties are, they can’t believe it. [Laughs.] But anyway, that was war time, and things were different then, so that’s why they switched that room into a bedroom.

Sarah:              So if you couldn’t eat in the house, where did you take your meals when you weren’t out on dates with servicemen who were buying you dinner?

Ruth:               We walked to the cafeteria.

Sarah:              And where was that? Was that Trinkle Hall?

Ruth:               Yes, mm-hmm, yeah. I’m still in Trinkle Hall for events, and I enjoy being in there.

00:59:59

Sarah:              Do you remember classmates or maybe even yourself getting up to any mischief on campus?

Ruth:               Well, I expect we did get up to a little mischief. I’m trying to think of an incident that… Oh, yes, an incident at that Kappa Alpha Theta house. We had a wonderful house mother, and we wanted to celebrate something with a bottle of champagne, a few of us. I don’t remember how many of us were involved in that little adventure.

And so we got a bottle of champagne into the Theta house and opened it, and were having—I don’t know what kind of glasses we used, but probably just glasses out of the kitchen. And she heard about it and she reprimanded us for it, but that was the worst punishment we got. She was very nice about it.

01:01:01          We adored her, too. Her name was Mrs. Stringfellow. She had been a house mother at UVA at a boys dorm or fraternity house, I guess it was, and when she came to William & Mary to the Theta house, she just thought it was wonderful to be with a bunch of girls instead of boys.

And she was a very enthusiastic bridge player, so there was a bridge game going on almost all the time at the Theta house, and she was one of the four, because some of our… I wasn’t into bridge. I didn’t have time for it. And a lot of others didn’t either, or weren’t interested in it. But some were, and they kept her busy playing bridge. And we fondly called her Mama String.

01:01:54          And so when Mama String got to be in her 90s, we decided that we would have a birthday party for her every year. And so we did. And she lived in Waverly, so she was…yeah, Waverly. And she would come to the campus, and her daughter would bring her, and we would have it at one of the restaurants in Williamsburg. And we just had a great time celebrating her birthday every year then.

And so when it got to be her hundredth, we had a really big affair for her on her hundredth. And I remember there were even two or three people that came from foreign countries to that birthday party that had been in the Theta house. So we celebrated that in a big way. Well, then it was she was to be 101, so she said now don’t have quite as big a party for me now, just a little something small.

01:03:00          So we had a party at the restaurant in Waverly, and it was a small group. And I remember she was seated beside me, and she said, you know, something might… She said, I certainly did like that young man you used to date from Minnesota. [Laughs.] And Cato was there at the table. I said, oh, you remember him? And she said, oh yes. And then she looked down at where Cato was seated, and she said, and I like Cato, too. [Laughs.]

And that same day she said, can I hold your hand a minute? So she was holding my hand. She said, my doctor tells me if you hold a person’s hand you can communicate with them better, but she said I have to be very careful because of those women that, when I’m holding their husbands’ hands, those wives, she said, in Waverly, if I hold their husbands’ hands they might not be too happy.

01:04:02          So in other words, she was an unusual lady, and stayed young all of her life.

Sarah:              She sounds wonderful.

Ruth:               Yes, she was wonderful, and we treasured our friendship with her. And I’m sure if she hadn’t stopped… Well, that was her last birthday party, 101. Oh, and that very day she said, you know, I’m not seeing too well now. And we were outside getting a group picture. Said I’m not seeing as well as I used to.

And then someone came up to speak to her who’d been some distance away from her and happened to be the cameraman who was there taking our picture, and so she said, oh yeah, I saw you way out there. So we decided her eyesight must not be so bad after all. I know, you took our picture. So she was a cute lady and we really did enjoy her.

01:05:01

Sarah:              You mentioned your husband Cato. I believe you met him on a blind date, is that right?

Ruth:               Yes.

Sarah:              How did that go?

Ruth:               That went nicely. My roommate, it was her cousin, and he had called her and said he’d like to come and have dinner with her because he was home on leave, was in his uniform when I met him. So she said to me, she said, you know, I really want to go out with my date tonight, how about you going out? You can go out with my cousin. And I said, Jean, I have a date. She said, well, break it. So I broke my date. And that was a Friday night. So we went out, I think down to the Officers Club at Little Creek, and went to a dance there, had dinner with dancing, and came back to the Theta house.

01:05:56          And he said, are you busy tomorrow night? And I said, well, no. It was exam time and I’d finished mine so I was free. And I said—and I wanted to be free when he said. And he said, well, let’s go out tomorrow night. We’ll go to the Officers Club again. And I said, oh, that’ll be fine. So we went to the Officers Club on Saturday night. So when he brought me back to the Theta house he said, are you busy tomorrow? And I said, well, I have some time free tomorrow.

He said, could you go to Emporia with me? He said I promised my parents I’d be there by a certain time to see my sister in the high school play, and she is a leading part. He said, could you go to that play with me? I said okay. So I got all dressed up. And in those days we wore little tea hats. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of those, but they were cute little whimsy things that sat on the back of your head.

01:07:04          Had my white gloves on and walked down that auditorium to my seat with him to see the play, and probably met some people then, too. I had to get back to the campus. So that was my first time in this auditorium that my son graduated in that auditorium. And I was teaching at the high school, so I had many meetings in that auditorium. And that auditorium really became quite an important part of my life here in Emporia. And so a few years ago it was in the need of being saved, so a group of us organized to try to save it.

01:07:57          And so for ten years we worked hard to save it. But we haven’t quite succeeded. But it may still happen. Most of them on the committee now have given up on it. And we aren’t actively trying now. But there’s still hope, you know, that someone will come forward and help us. So we were sorry that it didn’t work out when we were really dedicated to doing it.

Sarah:              You’ve been involved in al to of civic organizations, haven’t you?

Ruth:               Well, I have, and I’ve really enjoyed them, every one of them that I’ve… I think probably the most recent one I’ve… That reminds me, when Dean Lambert said, oh, just join them. [Laughs.] And my husband was a Rotarian, and I was a Rotary Ann, because that’s what wives were called back in the 1940s when this club was organized, in 1946.

01:08:59          And so I was very much a part of the Rotary Club because the women were involved in a lot of the events that they planned especially for us and other things. And I was very proud of the Rotary Club when he was a member. Not only was he a member, but his father was a member, and his grandfather was a member, and then our son became a member.

So when I joined I was already in the midst of three and then four generations of Tillars were in the Rotary Club, so I fell into the third generation where my husband had been. And I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it, and recently helped plan the 70^th anniversary of our Rotary Club.

Sarah:              Wow.

Ruth:               We had a great time.

Sarah:              You’ve also done a lot of traveling over the years.

01:09:52

Ruth:               Yes. My son Tom has invited me on many trips and I’ve enjoyed every one of them. I didn’t mind being a Hokie on each trip because he was pretty much in charge with his job as Vice President for Alumni Relations trips kind of came under his plans.

Sarah:              At Virginia Tech.

Ruth:               At Virginia Tech. And the first one we went on was to Scotland, and then we went to Ireland on the second trip. And then on another trip we went to… Well, three or four trips we went on our own without really being part of the Hokie group or William & Mary either. And one we spent Christmas in London one year. We spent Christmas in Rome another year. We spent Christmas in London. Did I mention London?

01:11:01          Okay, London, Rome and Austria. That was it. And they were all very special. Then we also went to France on our own. But then back to the other trips. I have something framed for each trip that I’ve ever been on as a memory. And I enjoyed every one of them. And the trip to Spain was a William & Mary trip. And the trip to Switzerland was a William & Mary trip. And when we were at the Metropole Hotel in Switzerland, each morning we would have breakfast on the 17^th floor, and we looked out at the house, and we saw all these parachutes out there.

01:11:56          And one of the William & Mary officials who was with us said I’m going to find out about that. So she came back and said, you know, we can do it. So seven of us signed up to paraglide. So we went to the top of a 4,000 foot mountain. First they stopped one place to outfit us with a certain kind of shoes. They wanted us to have on high top shoes.

And then they got to the top of the mountain, but on the way up there, there were seven of us and seven pilots, and so one of the pilots in the front seat, I thought, my, he’s mighty cute, I hope I get him. And sure enough, when they called out the names, Ruth Tillar and Richie. So Richie and I got out of the van, and I saw those parachutes, and I thought, well, there’s only one way down now.

01:12:55          And so they outfitted us with jackets and helmets, and they, one after the other, went off. And when our turn came up, Richie and I went off the mountain and we had 25 minutes up there together chatting. I got acquainted with him. [Laughs.]

And so then all of a sudden he said, oh, you know, I was going to land you across from your hotel because there’s an open field there, but he said, you know, the wind currents have changed, and he said I’m going to have to land you down there. And he pointed down, and it was a golf course. So Richie and I landed on the golf course. And all the other pilots, most of them, were already down, so they came running out to greet us.

01:13:52          And so my friend that was with me, a cousin, who had already paraglided off and was down and sitting in the car ready to be taken back to our hotel, he said, you know, I thought maybe I was going to lose my seat home. I thought you were going to take Richie back. [Laughs.] I said, well, Richie has a two-year-old. I thought I better leave him in Switzerland. But anyway, it was a great experience. I enjoyed every minute of it.

Sarah:              Was it scary?

Ruth:               No, not a bit scary. Now, it was for another lady. She was from Williamsburg, and she lived at Williamsburg Landing, and she was on the trip with us. And she was a tiny little lady. And so she went off, and as soon as she went off she told them they had to take her back. [Laughs.] So she did not like it. And that night at the banquet—that was our last night to be in Switzerland.

01:15:01          We were flying home the next day, so they had a nice party for us. And so she told the story about how she just couldn’t stand going down, so as soon as she landed she had them take her back to the car where we were to be taken back to our hotel. And now my cousin who was with me on that trip, they wanted everyone to have a little something to say.

So when I got home—I love to write poetry, so when I got back to my room that afternoon, after the paragliding, I wrote a poem about Switzerland and how much I enjoyed it and all. And my friend Buddy, cousin Buddy, he was asked a question, and he answered it perfectly about every country that borders Switzerland.

01:15:59          He told a little something about each country. And then he said, and Ruth got up and read a 12 page poem. [Laughs.] But it was only a couple of pages. So anyway, that was the final night of our trip to Switzerland.

Sarah:              It sounds fantastic.

Ruth:               It was a great trip.

Sarah:              Before we started our interview today you had me look at the picture, and I told you my palms were sweating just looking at the picture of you strapped in.

Ruth:               Oh, yes. [Laughs.] Right.

Sarah:              I think I’d be the lady who said, take me back!

Ruth:               Another nice trip we had that was kind of…it reminded me more of Switzerland than any other trip was to Norway. And I had told you about having the surgery on both my knees, and I was in the hospital only a few days, but my son called. Are you going to be ready to go to Norway this summer? I said, oh, sure. And I did. [Laughs.] Had a great trip to Norway.

01:16:58

Sarah:              Beautiful.

Ruth:               It is a beautiful country.

Sarah:              So you’re planning to go to homecoming this fall, right?

Ruth:               Yes, I am definitely planning to go to homecoming.

Sarah:              You’ve never missed a homecoming.

Ruth:               No, I’ve never missed a homecoming.

Sarah:              So how many will this be this fall?

Ruth:               76.

Sarah:              That’s amazing.

Ruth:               Yes. And I was very fortunate. Although I married a Hokie, he loved William & Mary. And I’d go to his office and he’d say—he had a big calendar over his desk—and he’d say, now tell me the dates we go to William & Mary next. [Laughs.]

So it only almost failed one time, and that was when Prince Charles was coming to speak on the campus. And I said to him, oh, by the way, we’re going to Williamsburg on such-and-such date to hear Prince Charles. He said, well, now we don’t have to do that, do we? I mean, do you have to go to everything?

01:18:00          I said yes, and we’re going. And we went. And he loved it. I mean, we went to a party afterward, and everyone was so excited about the wonderful speech the prince gave, and how popular he was with William & Mary. The seniors were there in their caps and gowns and they just really applauded him and made him feel so… I don’t think in England he was that popular right then because of the upcoming divorce in his life.

But anyway, he didn’t ever fail me. Another time, speaking of my school in Pittsburgh, they had asked for a little extra donation for competition about winning a prize or prizes, and I thought, well, I can add a little something besides what I usually give, so I sent it.

01:18:56          And I got a call and they said, are you seated? Are you sitting down? And I said no. They said, well, sit down because you won the grand prize, and you won five days at the Don CeSar Hotel in St. Petersburg Beach, Florida, and two airline tickets anywhere in the United States. So at that time Cato usually came home for lunch from his office, and so I couldn’t wait for him to get home so I could tell him about this exciting—this hotel was comparable to the Greenbrier, Homestead. You know, it was just different looking because it was Florida architecture.

And so when he got home and I told him, he said, well now people win trips all the time and they don’t necessarily go on them. I said, well, we’re going. And we went, and he loved every minute of it.

01:19:59          So I had to be a little persuasive, but never about William & Mary, except that one time when I persuaded him to go to hear Prince Charles. So I have to say that I didn’t miss many things at William & Mary, thanks to him. Hardly anything. And then fortunately I’ve had the cousin who’s taken me through the years, so I’ve been fortunate, very lucky about that.

Sarah:              What is it you enjoy most about going to homecoming every year?

Ruth:               Well, firstly, seeing friends, and being a part of all of the different—oh, that goes back to dancing again. We used to have, many years for homecoming, there would be an opening night, Friday night, there would be a big dinner dance. And then the next day the parade in the morning.

01:20:58          And then there would be the game. And then usually another big party that night. So I think it’s not… I loved it, and we did have a great time. And there were so many of us that went back and stayed together, and different… It was a building that’s called the Brickhouse Tavern has 16 rooms, and I would be able to get that for our class. And so we’d fill that up, and if anybody couldn’t get their reservations in in time they had to go somewhere else.

Most of the time we stayed in the same location, and that was one of them. And then Hospitality House. And one time we did the Inn together. We just…picked The Lodge several times. So that was…being together with couples that we were so close to.

01:21:58          And usually on the final day or on Sunday before we parted, we would have a party at the Inn and we would sit there and plan the next year’s homecoming, so I think it was just being with friends and doing all of those things I mentioned. I know things have changed, and it’s good because different generations need different type entertainment, so… I still enjoy going.

And I think block parties are great. And now they have something big in the sunken garden. So I look forward to it. We always start out, though, on Friday lunch, with the Old Guard luncheon. And that’s in our old cafeteria, Trinkle Hall. But everything can’t stay the same, but it’s still fun to be a part of it.

01:23:01

Sarah:              I think we should bring back tea dances.

Ruth:               I know.

Sarah:              I think that sounds fun.

Ruth:               They were really fun. And not only were they done on campuses, but when I would go home for Christmas there would always be a tea dance at our country club, so it was… I think it was because they were well known then as a way of entertainment. I don’t know why they went away completely, except for the few places I’ve heard that have held onto them or have brought them back. I think it would be a nice thing if your wish came true. [Laughs.]

Sarah:              Thank you. I agree. So maybe a little bit of a tough question. If you had to pick one word to describe the William & Mary community, what one word would you use?

01:24:01

Ruth:               Oh, my. Well, I think one thing I omitted telling you when we were talking about my connection with the Lamberts, that very first day that I arrived at their house to be there a semester, they took me out to dinner to The Lodge, and of course I’d already fallen in love with William & Mary from previous. Hadn’t really been to a class yet, or been to the orientation yet. But I already knew I loved it.

So that very night at dinner—I wasn’t that familiar with Colonial Williamsburg and what was really going on there. I later learned it during orientation, more about it because we had visits to the colonial homes and the capitol, etc.

01:25:07          But that night he told me the story of how Colonial Williamsburg was being restored, and how long it had been going on, and things that I had never known about in connection with it. So I would say that that night I fell in love with Colonial Williamsburg. So now your question is what word—love. Love for William & Mary and love for Colonial Williamsburg. And I’m thankful they’ve both been a part of my life all of these years.

Sarah:              That’s wonderful. In 2018 we will be commemorating 100 years of coeducation at William & Mary. Do you have any thoughts about the contributions that women have made over the years to the William & Mary community?

01:26:05

Ruth:               I think William & Mary has been very fortunate to have had contributions in almost every area of the college. I’m thinking, somehow I was thinking about athletics, how women have shined in athletics, and the dance program at William & Mary. I just think that they have opened up so many things that might not have happened there if we hadn’t had the coeds to be a part of it. I even enjoyed fencing when I was at William & Mary, and that was really just mostly for men. But some way I got in on the class, and I still have my mask and foil.

Sarah:              Do you really?

01:27:03

Ruth:               Mm-hmm, I still have it. But I just think that William &—and I was very interested in golf, and my father, because I told you I was an only child, and he said he wanted me to either be…well, he wanted me to be both an engineer and a golfer. Well, I think he realized I’d never be able to be an engineer, so at ten years old he sent me for golf lessons, and golf has been a very important part of my life.

And I’ve enjoyed it, and I even got, we even got a golf class organized one summer. I spent one summer at William & Mary for summer school and they organized a little golf class. They hadn’t gotten—I don’t know how much golfing is done there now by women, or if there is any real golf program.

01:28:01          But I did enjoy that golf class that summer, and we got to play in the Inn course, too. That was special. And that summer I also got to join the Inn pool, so after class—we didn’t have any air conditioning in those days in the dorms and so every day after class I would go with a friend—she was there for the summer—and we were dating, double dating together.

So one day we were sitting at the Inn pool after class and she said, well, let’s…how about taking our dates out to Auntie’s for a picnic tomorrow? Well, I had no idea who Auntie was, but I said oh, that sounds nice. She said, well, I’ll organize it. So we got out to Auntie’s house, and Auntie’s house was Carter’s Grove, and a beautiful plantation home.

01:29:00          And so we were met by the butler who came out on the porch with a white wicker picnic basket. We took it down to the beach and had a picnic lunch and then we toured the plantation, and we came back up to be… The lady who owned it at that time was Mrs. McCrea, and so she entertained us, and we were having just a delightful time.

And after dinner she was ready to go up to her room, so my friend, her niece, said, well, let’s go up and tell Auntie good night. So we went up to Mrs. McCrea’s room, and I saw that gorgeous bathroom, and I thought, oh, I hope I have a bathroom like that someday. But anyway, came back downstairs and was with my date again, and we were sitting in this very cozy, nice room with a fire going in the fireplace.

01:30:00          It seemed more like a library room, lots of books on the walls. So he proposed to me. And I refused. And so years later I was reading an article about Carter’s Grove and I read about the refusal room. And then I realized that was the room I was in. [Laughs.] And that George Washington proposed in there and he was refused, and Thomas Jefferson, and he was refused, and I guess when you’re in the refusal room, you refuse, so… [Laughs.]

Sarah:              So you were in good company.

Ruth:               I was in good company. But it was a beautiful—it is a beautiful home. And I’ve enjoyed being a part of it because Colonial Williamsburg has owned it for the—Mrs. McCrea left it to Colonial Williamsburg. So I go to Colonial Williamsburg annual meetings and they talk about Carter’s Grove.

But it isn’t doing as well as it was at one time because I think that it was just too much for Colonial Williamsburg to keep up a plantation home like that, so they sold it. And the first sale didn’t turn out too good. But I understand now someone from Chicago has bought it, so hopefully everything will go smoothly once again at Carter’s Grove.

Sarah:              It’s in good hands again, I think. Well, Ruth, thank you so much for talking to us today. It has been a great pleasure to hear your story.

Ruth:               Well, it’s been a pleasure being with you, too, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. And it is fun to reminisce and remember these very special times in my life.

Sarah:              Thank you.

01:32:02          [End of recording.]