[00:00:00.06] CARMEN: My name is Carmen Bolts. I'm the Oral Historian at William and
Mary. It's currently around 9:30 AM on March 26, 2019. I'm sitting in the Swim Library on
William Campus with Selena Fox class of 1971. So could you start by telling me your full name,
and the date, and place of your birth?
[00:00:23.73] SELENA: Most people know me as Selena Fox. I was born Suzanne Marie Biscet
married in 1986 and took my husband's surname, my birth name, and my writing and
professional name Selena Fox. And my full legal name is Selena Suzanne Marie Biscet
Carpenter Fox.
[00:00:52.03] CARMEN: There you go.
[00:00:52.84] SELENA: And I was born in Arlington, Virginia in 1949.
[00:00:58.42] CARMEN: OK. Wonderful. And before we get started, can you just tell me what
year you attended William and Mary?
[00:01:04.33] SELENA: I attended William and Mary from 1967 fall term to the spring term of
1971. And I graduated cum laude with the BS in Psychology in June of 1971.
[00:01:20.87] CARMEN: Wonderful.
[00:01:21.34] SELENA: June 6, 1971 probably.
[00:01:24.55] CARMEN: That's great. Awesome. And that day has stuck with you. Are you
excited?
[00:01:29.50] SELENA: It was a wonderful day. But it was also a day that I chose to speak out
against racism and some of the dynamics around what speaker ended up being selected for the
class for our graduation ceremony.
[00:01:49.75] Our class was not allowed to go with our choice of speaker. The college picked
somebody different.
[00:01:59.08] CARMEN: Yeah. Well, I definitely want to create space and a little bit to talk
more about that if you would like. But we'll go out and start just a little bit before your time at
William Mary talking about where and how you are raised and a little bit about your family.
[00:02:17.30] SELENA: Sure. I was born in 1949 October 28th in Arlington, Virginia. I grew up
in Arlington and went to Birchwood Elementary for my first year. And then I was in Thomas
Nelson Paige Elementary, Stratford junior high, and I was at Washington and Lee High School
for my high school years.[00:02:48.70] There were several years where I lived in Michigan. But came back and finished
up my junior high at Stratford. So I was very involved in honor society work and community
service. And my love of Latin and the classics began in junior high and continued on through
high school, and into my time at William and Mary.
[00:03:16.15] CARMEN: Wonderful. And so what was your family set up like? What was your
childhood like? And was college something you knew you always wanted to attend? Or how did
you start thinking about that?
[00:03:32.71] SELENA: I excelled in school. I was in a gifted track throughout my public school
experience. I've had a love of learning since my youth and very much wanted to go to college.
[00:03:47.77] Neither of my parents went to college. But further back in my family tree, there
were doctors, and lawyers, and all sorts of people who did have that as a choice.
[00:03:59.98] I had a number of possibilities because of my good grade point for college. I ended
up going to William and Mary. I love Virginia.
[00:04:14.71] And I think that the idea of having CoEd education was really important to me.
And some of the other choices that guidance counselors were recommending for me were some
of the Seven Sisters colleges.
[00:04:33.19] Back at the time when I was making that choice, not all colleges and universities
were open to women. In fact, I had considered going to University of Virginia. But it was all
male, and women could not be admitted.
[00:04:52.55] I've always had a love of Williamsburg and things colonial revolutionary. and
patriotic. And it seemed like the right choice to go there.
[00:05:05.00] CARMEN: And so had you visited Williamsburg prior to--
[00:05:09.14] SELENA: Yes. In fact, when Jamestown had its beginnings in terms of people
learning about that history back in the 50s, I was there with my family. Jamestown, and
Yorktown, and Williamsburg were part of my youth experience with my family. My entire
family has really loved history, loved gardening, and nature, and community service.
[00:05:40.76] I later found out that some of my own ancestral roots most likely were hardwired
into the DNA descended from people who were Patriots in the Revolutionary War, including one
who was on the Continental Congress.
[00:05:58.19] CARMEN: Yeah. That is a long family history of enjoying history and being part
of a patriot call.
[00:06:06.32] SELENA: Yeah. So I ended up going to the College of William and Mary. I'm
very glad that I did. I continue to come back from time to time to be at William and Mary toconnect with people I know in this community. I've had other family members go here. And it's
wonderful.
[00:06:29.24] CARMEN: Great. Well, so I want to talk a little bit about when you first got to
William Mary. If you have any memories of that first experience here coming on campus? What
it looks like, smelled like, felt like being here for the first time as a freshman?
[00:06:47.03] SELENA: So as I arrived at William and Mary in the fall of 1967, this was leaving
the nest at home. So I really celebrated having some independence and being able to start the
next chapter of my life.
[00:07:06.20] I spent time in the various dorms on campus. I believe my very first dorm
experience was Jefferson. So Jefferson hall.
[00:07:18.53] I remember connecting with my roommate, and setting up our room, and doing
some shopping, getting the place decorated. And it was very exciting.
[00:07:32.49] I was very thankful to be at the College of William and Mary. And I was very glad
that women had been admitted to the College of William and Mary. However, after a few
months, I became more aware of the discrepancy between how women were expected to be on
campus and how men were expected to be on campus.
[00:07:58.85] Women actually had a rule book. That William and Mary woman, men to my
knowledge didn't have any rule book. We had housemother that made sure we were locked up in
the dorms commonly known as chastity row at that time.
[00:08:19.42] As I look back on it now, I not only have great memories of the excitement of the
new chapter of life, but also some angst about the fact that women were expected to comply with
what was known as in loco parentis, in place of parents. Whereas men had a freedom that we did
not enjoy.
[00:08:49.84] CARMEN: Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to talk more about those rules, and
regulations, and the dress codes, and curfews. Because those I guess were ousted in '69 in the
wake of some demonstrations against those the discrepancies between men and women on
campus.
[00:09:13.19] And so the second half of your time here, you would have experienced I guess the
new found freedom or liberation.
[00:09:21.85] SELENA: I was part of the process of helping to get some corrective feedback
about equal treatment in within the campus arena. And because of the strong state support for the
college, there was also that state dimension and national dimension regarding equality.
[00:09:43.06] During orientation, I got a copy of the William Mary woman. It was our rule book.
And we had to pretty much memorize it, we were tested on it.[00:09:53.59] And some of the rules that stay with me now, and at some point during my visit
here at William and Mary I'm going to actually revisit the book in the archives. And really take a
look and refresh my memory of all the rules.
[00:10:10.57] But some of the ones that really stuck in my mind. No walking in the woods
without sign parental permission. Women could not wear slacks.
[00:10:21.46] There was the curfew at night. I believe it's 11 o'clock on weeknights. And you
had to be locked up.
[00:10:29.86] And there were periodic bed checks in the form of fire drills and unannounced
time, in which case, we all had to go traipsing out. And the house mothers had the list of who
needed to be there. And if you were not accounted for in trouble had some problems.
[00:10:52.48] Well, I enjoyed my time at William and Mary in many ways throughout all four
years. But I became aware that there were more men than women on campus. And that to get
into William and Mary I believe it was something like 25% of the campus was women, and 75%
men.
[00:11:18.61] And so you had to be pretty much a student to get into the college if you were a
woman. Men, if you were good at football, you might be able to get in with a much lower grade
point average.
[00:11:34.39] I decided after wrestling with this discrepancy, that I really needed to take some
action. So I was part of the process of giving some corrective feedback to the college
administration about the need to really bring about equality.
[00:11:53.89] And I did that in several ways. I helped organize event. It's actually I love books. I
once became a librarian for a living.
[00:12:07.34] I've never burned a book. But this time, what better way to symbolize the problem.
And get some drama and attention to the problem to raise public awareness, to organize a book
burning up the William Mary women.
[00:12:26.74] And most of the people that showed up were men celebrating the burning of a
book. A few women join me as part of this conflagration. After that, I guess other ways of
negotiating, and communicating, and expressing concerns about the inequality expanded into
helping to found a campus organization with faculty and students called women's equality.
[00:13:00.68] And we did marches for International Women's Day. We were part of statewide
conferences looking at the status of women. We connected with what was going on nationwide.
And while some people say second wave feminism didn't really start to help the 70s, I was doing
it in the 60s.
[00:13:20.27] CARMEN: Yeah. That's wonderful. And I want to talk more about all of this the
ways you're pushing the bar forward, and also the reaction on campus to that by administration,by other students. You were mentioning interacting with an administration are pushing back
against the administration on some of these topics though. And I noted that Davis Paschall was
serving as president of William and Mary during your time there.
[00:13:48.55] SELENA: I had many close encounters with David Paschall of a negotiating time.
[00:13:54.60] CARMEN: Right. Well, so I've noted and heard from others I've interviewed that
his presidency was pretty contentious namely that he was prior to his presidency here, and maybe
during his presidency, and big proponent of massive resistance. And so there were a lot of issues,
especially in terms of integration of the school that he was involved with. So beyond that, I was
just wondering if you could offer any reflections on his presidency or your interactions with him.
[00:14:26.20] SELENA: I do think we had patriarchy asserting itself in ways that actually
exasperated and exacerbated the situation. Clearly, we were part of a much larger movement for
social change happening in the United States and other parts of the world. So it wasn't the easiest
time for anybody to be president of any university or college at that time.
[00:15:01.42] I think he would have done well to have had a more diverse circle of advisors in
terms of really coming to terms with what was happening not only on campus, but the larger
scene within the United States. I made it my strategy in terms of really working for social change
on campus and in the larger realm to follow the nonviolent model.
[00:15:35.83] And certainly, I started my work with civil rights with the support of Martin
Luther King Jr. And the March on Washington of 1963. I am certainly patriotic. I'm descended
from people that have served the country in various military capacities. I worked at the Pentagon
one summer during my time at William and Mary.
[00:16:03.19] In fact, the dean a woman called me into her office one fall. And I got a letter of
commendation from the secretary of the US Army for my work at the Pentagon.
[00:16:14.89] So for me, it was being opposed to the military. But I had concerns about what was
happening with the war in Vietnam, and the disinformation and outright lies that were being told
to the American people. Certainly, I can understand because I do a lot of work for the US
military veterans and families as part of my current work doing work with nature religion
practitioners, especially who are serving and who have served in their families.
[00:16:47.48] I know it's really important to be supportive and the need for a military in these
times that are turbulent. I'm not contesting that. But I do think as we look at how America moves
forward and has moved in the past, we really need to abide by rule of law, and honesty, integrity.
[00:17:15.01] Values that I learned during my time at William and Mary. So certainly, I was
involved in helping to raise awareness about a number of social issues while I was a student at
William and Mary. That involved women's rights. But it also involved peace. It involved the idea
of working with nonviolence as a way of bringing awareness to events, situations.[00:17:49.27] I was part of peace vigils in front of the campus Student Center. And how did
other people relate and react to the fact that there were people standing up for peaceful ways of
resolving differences. Certainly was jeered at, bullied, harassed, spit on during our silent vigil for
peace.
[00:18:17.29] I was very involved in helping people that really had a conscientious objection to
warfare. Navigate their choices. I did work with some Quakers and some other people of other
faith traditions while I was on campus.
[00:18:38.22] And was part of the women Mary and Williamsburg draft counseling center, and
gave that as an option. I also with my background in psychology that I was developing during
my time. I helped do some counseling work for women regarding birth control and reproductive
choice.
[00:19:00.45] While I was a student at the College of William and Mary, it was illegal to show
birth control devices in public and do that education. So these were some times, which were
turbulent in part because people were becoming aware that it was possible to make change, and
became aware of non-violent ways of raising public awareness and putting democracy into
action.
[00:19:32.52] CARMEN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've mentioned it already. But the long
60s are such a time of social change and political change in the country.
[00:19:45.34] And so I think it's really interesting to see how sociopolitical structures or systems
are times play out on college campuses because they're such a microcosm of what's going on in
the broader world. And William and Mary has traditionally been referred to as a pretty
conservative campus.
[00:20:06.46] Some individuals are surprised to hear there is any activism of any sort here. So I
love getting on record, the types of rallies, or demonstrations, or efforts that were being made for
social change. And it seems like you were involved in a ton of that during your time here.
[00:20:25.87] I have lists of just-- you were so very active in organizations and clubs as a
student. And please feel free to add anything I missed here.
[00:20:35.74] SELENA: Sure.
[00:20:36.52] CARMEN: You participated in the Student Association Anthropology Club, the
flat had Psychology Club, Students for a Liberal Action. There was the student ACLU
representation.
[00:20:51.73] Your president made a statement by, president of the Classics Club, treasurer of
the Mortarboards, secretary treasurer of the Direct Counseling Center you just mentioned. And
you were original founder of women's equality groups.[00:21:04.45] So I know you noted that coming on to campus pretty quickly. You realize these
discrepancies between especially men and women social rules. But what else motivated you to
be so engaged in these particular organizations?
[00:21:21.27] SELENA: I really felt it was important as part of my community service to help
our campus community link up with other campus communities, as well as the larger society in
terms of looking at these issues. I found it the classics club to make it possible for students who
perhaps did not have the greatest grade point average to be able to still enjoy and explore the
classics.
[00:21:55.50] I founded the Gay Liberation group, which is now known as Lambdas Society. I
helped organize Earth Day, the very first Earth Day in 1970. Our focus for our teach-in was
looking at the Chesapeake Bay, and how it was polluted, and it was dying. And we needed to
raise our awareness about environmental issues, find ways of taking corrective action.
[00:22:24.63] I helped organize a variety of different events. And I felt it was very important to
celebrate diversity on campus to really celebrate free speech, and have a variety of different
viewpoints represented.
[00:22:42.15] I was also involved in the quest for racial equality, and did some work at the
African-American Baptist church. I worked in their child care center.
[00:22:54.90] And our choice as the class of '71 for a speaker for our graduation was an African-
American activist. He was not selected by the college administration because he was so-called
too political. He was replaced with a White Southern politician who was very conservative.
[00:23:25.29] There was an outcry by our class. We decided that we would not wear our caps
and gowns, that we would donate the money from the caps and gowns to the Martin Luther King
Jr. endeavors. And that was underway.
[00:23:48.18] But of course, the college, they were pretty smart strategically. I wasn't thrilled at
what happened. I can understand what happened.
[00:24:01.15] But we had hundreds of us graduating. And all the parents got a letter and was told
if their son or daughter would not be wearing their cap and gown, they had to go at the end of the
line and sit-in the back of the place. And this is regardless of academic achievement and
community service and all of that.
[00:24:28.29] I recall there were four of us who decided that we would stay strong and not wear
our cap and gown. And I was one of them. I decided that in addition to not wearing a cap and
gown that I would be brightly colored, I had a pink and white jumpsuit that I had created.
Flowers, it was nice. But a top that I wore a protest sign saying end racism.
[00:25:01.63] So I'm walking in at the back of the line. Everyone's going into the Wren Yard.
And just as I'm entering the Wren Yard, two people jumped out of the bushes and grabbed meand yanked the sign off of me. And would not even allow my free speech to be present at my
own graduation.
[00:25:25.14] Even though I was an honors student, I graduated cum laude and I was in
mortarboard, and to signify another honorary work that I had done. But yet I think it was
memorable. Not only for me personally, but I now tell that story as a snapshot of what those
turbulent times were.
[00:25:50.73] Many people think of the 60s. But it actually continued on into the 70s up into our
present day. I do think that my understanding in my action of working within systems and to
really work nonviolently has served me well.
[00:26:09.95] And I am glad that all of that citizenship work that I had inside and outside of the
classroom at William and Mary, it's really helped me get things done in the larger society.
[00:26:23.00] CARMEN: Yeah, absolutely. And I was wondering because you mentioned there
were really only four of you that decided to move forward after the strategic move to contact
parents by the college. What had been the support and involvement before that? It had end up
with four of you. But how many had it been?
[00:26:42.12] SELENA: It was many, many people in the class. And there were some other
things that happened on campus that really got widespread campus support. Earth Day was one
of those things in April 22, 1970.
[00:27:01.31] And many people from a variety of different political orientations on campus
joined together because we saw the common ground of what was going on with the environment.
So that was a really positive memory that I have.
[00:27:17.96] When the Kent State killings happened, the only time I did any civil disobedience
on campus was joining with campus leaders across the United States to protest the killing of
students who were peacefully protesting the war in Vietnam. And we took over an administration
building.
[00:27:44.72] The only time on campus that I saw people in riot gear, loaded guns, and helmets.
And we were taking something right out of the Civil rights playbook in terms of sitting in the
halls, we were singing, we shall overcome, which was an anthem of the civil rights movement
for racial equality.
[00:28:11.37] And we were not destroying property. We were peacefully there to be a presence,
to basically say that our campus community too is standing up to say do not kill us for our
beliefs. And that was a pretty powerful moment.
[00:28:33.77] I do think that we also got support from people that would call themselves
politically conservative even though people would characterize that coming out of the new lab.
Because it was impacting people.[00:28:50.48] We called for a student strike day. People not going to classes. I do think out of the
various things that I did over time, even including talking to Vise President Lambert about the
need to dispense birth control and the student infirmary.
[00:29:12.05] Certainly, there are a number of things that I interfaced with the college
administration about. But the one that probably was most contentious was us organizing a
conference on peace and justice that was scheduled for the same time that President Richard
Nixon and all the attorney generals in America were meeting in Williamsburg.
[00:29:41.30] We wanted to have it in the sunken garden. There were eight of us on the
committee. Myself, another woman, and six men.
[00:29:54.05] Our planning committee looked at it being nonviolent, free speech, diversity of
viewpoints. We wanted to bring in speakers from a variety of different organizations and places
in the country, so that it truly was a balance to the so-called conference on the judiciary there
was happening across town.
[00:30:20.03] Well, we were not allowed to use the sunken garden. Could we be in the stadium?
There is debate about that.
[00:30:31.31] We finally negotiated going to Matoaka Amphitheater. And thousands of people
took part. There were between 4,000 and 5,000 people by some of the estimates.
[00:30:46.04] There weren't enough seats for everyone. But it didn't matter. We had people from
the Chicago Seven, welfare rights.
[00:30:54.59] We had people from different ethnicities, from different political viewpoints. And
I felt it was really important because there were people from so many different backgrounds,
races, points of view that we also should have some type of inter-religious. I guess opening and
closing to our time together.
[00:31:23.88] So I was part of the process that got the beat poet Allen Ginsberg to come and be
that person to do the opening and the closing. And he brought us through d-box. And let us all in
a great home.
[00:31:40.85] Now, he had been very involved in other social justice endeavors across the
country. And it was really fabulous that he was able to join us.
[00:31:53.99] There were people from the American Civil Liberties Union. I was the a member
of the Virginia chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. One of two women. The other was
a nun. And the youngest member, I was a student member.
[00:32:11.87] And the American Civil Liberties Union did help us lawyer up when we met with
Paschall and other people with the board of visitors and other members of the campus
administration. They really did want us to not do our bit. And there were trumped up charges that
we were going to be violent.[00:32:35.72] But all people really had to do was really look at the track record. Not only my
personal track record in terms of protest and rallies on campus, but the other people involved to
know that we were peaceful. And when possible went through established means.
[00:32:56.06] The good thing was lots of people showed up. People from the Williamsburg
community, people from across campus, people from many different places. It went off
peacefully.
[00:33:07.31] As part of a multiday event, there was a showing of some films the night before.
And in fact, the student association had a dance and brought in an English group, brought in
Black Sabbath of all groups.
[00:33:24.20] And yes, indeed, it is true. I went to the evening concert dance with Allen
Gisbergen and danced to Black Sabbath, people of Allen Ginsberg. We actually paid the Nixon
conference a visit peaceful. Without a large demonstration.
[00:33:49.83] We took a letter that we wanted passed on to Nixon and managed-- Gisbergen I
managed to get through levels of security and actually give it to an aide, whether he actually read
it. And it made any difference. Who knows? But the positive thing is that democracy was truly
an action in Williamsburg back in 1971.
[00:34:15.80] CARMEN: Yes, I would say so. And I'm wondering in response to these sorts of
events. You're able to notice some change, some immediately like the curfew and the dress codes
those and did in 1969.
[00:34:34.28] But how quickly were other efforts catching on? How quickly was support being
garnered for the efforts that you were involved with on campus?
[00:34:48.20] SELENA: Social change can really take a long time. Yes, it can be quite dramatic.
I think that it's most important to plant viable seeds, continue to nurture them, and to allow the
culture to shift in a more gradual way, and in a way with reason and compassion.
[00:35:11.91] So it took some time. When I graduated from the College of William and Mary, I
continued my social justice work. One of the jobs that I went to was volunteering at a clinic that
help people from the inner city in Hampton with heroin addiction.
[00:35:38.27] I also went and worked on an archeology dig for a time. And it was there that I
encountered a woman who shared some spiritual beliefs that I did. It had connected with through
my background in the classics, which got awakened at College William and Mary.
[00:36:00.68] And clearly, as I went to Rutgers University that fall and help break the gender
barrier at that all-male institution, they let women into the graduate program first. I carried with
me things that I had learned during my time at William and Mary about the importance of
celebrating diversity and working within systems to get some things done.[00:36:29.63] CARMEN: Yeah, great. So I have a couple more questions for you about your
time at William and Marry before we make the transition. And it all has to do with different
things you've brought up.
[00:36:41.13] But one thing. And it relates to your graduating class, in your dorm you lived in,
and even your anti-racism stance at graduation. But you came in with the first three African-
Americans in residence. You were part of the same graduating class. And they also lived in
Jefferson.
[00:37:02.57] SELENA: They did.
[00:37:03.14] CARMEN: So I would love to get your reflections on that experience and what
you saw as a campus response and reaction to the official integration of William and Mary. So I
would love to get your feedback on being part of that, and witnessing that milestone, and seeing
how the campus reacted.
[00:37:25.79] SELENA: I felt very strongly that there really needed to be more racial diversity at
the College of William and Mary, as well as equal numbers of women and men and equality
regarding academic qualifications coming into the college. I was able to connect with the
women. And I found that it was really fabulous to be part of that historic time.
[00:37:58.76] And I made a point of being able to talk about my experience working with civil
rights marches and movements for racial equality as part of my conversations with people of a
variety of different backgrounds. I had friends who were in the young Americans for freedom.
And even though they would consider themselves quite diametrically opposed, I felt it was really
important to have conversations to develop relationships.
[00:38:34.94] I have some sad news to report regarding my time at the College of William and
Mary. We decided to bring in the African-American activists, the senior class. Some of us
decided to bring him in any way in connection with the Baptist church. We actually held it at one
of the Baptist churches in Williamsburg.
[00:39:00.32] His life was threatened. He had to travel with bodyguards. There was an active
KKK chapter not far from our campus that were still dressing in their white garments with the
hoods and burning crosses.
[00:39:19.91] So it was still part of that time back then. But I felt it was absolutely important to
stand up for equal rights for all people and to stand strong in the face of adversity.
[00:39:41.28] So fortunately, there was no attack on the African-American speaker. And I do
think having gone through something intense like that created an even stronger bonding
experience among students and community members of different races as we went forth and
explored the need to truly have equality, liberty, and justice for all.[00:40:12.89] CARMEN: So I was wondering in all your efforts at William Mary if you've found
or identified some really strong mentors, or professors, or supporters during your time here that
are worth noting.
[00:40:28.21] SELENA: My English class was in the building. And Professor Rabinowitz helped
open up a deeper understanding of English literature. But he also was someone who was very
progressive in his thinking, and open to many viewpoints.
[00:40:48.50] And I want to celebrate him. I want to celebrate Herbert Friedman, Professor of
Psychology. It was because of him. And how he started out is introductory to psychology class
that I actually decided to switch to psychology and considered being a sociology major.
[00:41:08.47] He came into class carrying a possum. And I thought any professor that would
actually have an interspecies lecture would be quite an interesting person to connect with.
[00:41:25.25] And one of the things that fascinated me from a very early age was really taking a
look at not only cognition and how the rational intellectual part of mind worked, but the concept
of rapport and intuition, which are really important when you're doing psychotherapy and
counseling with people. And in terms of people making choices in their life that gut feeling that
intuition to actually being able to study what some people would call parapsychology, ESP,
psychic phenomena, which I actually see is all woven into this new integrated medicine field
called neuroimmunology.
[00:42:13.33] So Herbert Freedman was somebody who was not afraid to really study
consciousness. Another professor was Professor Alex McGregor who was in the classics. And
through him, I came to not only understand Latin, and Greek, and Roman civilization, the
classics department being one of the original departments at College of William and Mary from
its earliest years.
[00:42:43.09] But he helped take a look at America in some ways as a new Rome, how we were
in the world, and both the positive things that America was contributing to the larger world, as
well as some of the more complicated things, including some of the military operations.
[00:43:08.26] Professor Baumgardner who was in anthropology who actually helped start
women's equality with me and several other women. Another person that was really important.
[00:43:23.05] And Professor Kelly Shaver who I did my honor's research with. My honors
project was on sex role stereotyping of women. He totally encouraged me.
[00:43:38.02] And that pursuit, he also was encouraging of me being able to have field
experiences with social psychology. Indeed, when I went to a march in Washington against the
Vietnam War, I not only was able to be part of nonviolent protest there, but I made sure that I'd
be able to come back and not get jailed, and defend my honors thesis.
[00:44:14.05] And one of the things that I discovered as I did my research on sex role
stereotyping of women and looking specifically at what had happened on campus. There wasmuch in the archives voices saying women would bring the academic standards down on
campus. There was strong opposition.
[00:44:43.96] Just the idea that it wasn't a place for women in the higher education. And I am so
thankful that the College of William and Mary did let women come in and start getting degrees.
[00:45:02.98] As I been reflecting and preparation for this interview, I realized we're celebrating
100 years of women here. And I'm here on campus as part of that program and the Call 300.
[00:45:17.38] I came into William and Mary midway in that 100 years of women. And I'm happy
to report now that I'm back on campus again. I am seeing that equality that I had envisioned and
worked for 50 years ago manifesting. And that's very exciting.
[00:45:38.59] CARMEN: Yeah. Especially if we want to just talk in terms of percentages of
women being on campus. That alone, there are more women on campus now than there are men
and that certainly wasn't the case in your time here.
[00:45:51.56] SELENA: So well, I'll tell a story about my honor's journey at the College of
William and Mary. Professors would be brought in to give talks. And whoever happened to be in
the honors program in psychology, would have an opportunity to dine with the visiting scholar
and professor.
[00:46:16.89] So my senior year February 1971, I was one of the honor students in psychology
that got to have dinner with an eminent psychologist. And there were two women and the rest
young men in the honors program.
[00:46:38.88] And it came time to have us all sit down the table. He insisted that us women
would sit on either side of him. OK. This is you get to talk with the researcher. Well, this could
be exciting.
[00:46:55.02] Though I was a little suspicious about that. And then he starts out his remarks. I
am so glad to be in the company of such highly intelligent men and beautiful women. At which
point, I said and the women here are highly intelligent too.
[00:47:14.05] Well, we didn't have a lot of conversation during the dinner even though I was
sitting next to him. I did go to his talk. And I would say out of all the different presentations both
on campus, by faculty, and students, as well as visiting lecturers, this was the most sexist and
horrendous presentation I have ever seen in my entire life. He was talking about research with
primates.
[00:47:46.56] And in between pictures of primates and talking about parenting, there were
Playboy pinup pictures. Professor Baumgardner from the anthropology department who was bear
at that and was so disgusted. She got up and marched out in a huff.
[00:48:16.44] I decided despite seeing this objectifying of women and the making jokes about us
and our reproductive functions that I would stick it out and really get the whole experience. I leftthat disappointed, disgusted, and thinking perhaps this person had some mental decline, and
really needed to abide by manners that we're pretty much hardwired in Southern culture.
[00:48:59.53] So while I'm sad to have had that experience, it has been a funny in a twisted way
story to tell to raise consciousness about what the times were like back then. You think today in
2019, some professor trying to pull that prank would not only have some immediate negative
feedback expressed, but most likely would not continue on in the profession.
[00:49:36.66] CARMEN: Yeah. I'm thinking just about similarities really between the time you
were here and now. Especially now that you've mentioned like you were here at the midway
point, right?
[00:49:48.87] SELENA: Yeah.
[00:49:49.11] CARMEN: I did hear your celebration. And you have noted like how many
wonderful strides you've seen made. But there are also things that continue that we're still
actively fighting back against and working to just draw attention to.
[00:50:04.11] And one of those things is sexual harassment, sexual abuse on campus, and the
dangers often of being someone in a situation, where they are sexually harassed, sexually abused,
and not supported or supported. So I wanted to ask you. If you recall how or if sexual harassment
was something that was being discussed on campus during your time here. And if so, how that
was being addressed, and what resources were available if any?
[00:50:38.61] SELENA: There was still a strong consciousness of being a so-called southern
belle. And the idea of dressing to please men of serving oneself to men of not asserting oneself
and being equal to men. There was a buy end just due to upbringing.
[00:51:09.36] I was raised in a family with a happily married couple. Father and mother loved
them dearly. I had two sisters.
[00:51:19.38] My mother though lost her father early on when she was nine years old. And
essentially, her mother, my grandmother is part of the extended family worked for a living. And I
do think because of her own experiences, and my grandmother actually going to business school,
and becoming a professional woman even before she got married, there was already within my
DNA and social system a departure in terms of being able to be outspoken and strong.
[00:52:02.43] I do think I know firsthand that there was bullying, and jeering, and harassment on
campus. But there wasn't that consciousness about really saying no and asserting oneself and
claiming that. And part of it women were a minority on campus.
[00:52:28.60] And there was a societal acceptance that, well, if you're attractive, that's what's
going to happen to you. You and I people can't you and everything. And I am glad that there are
changes happening.[00:52:47.46] The whole idea of talking about reproductive choice and how dangerous it was
legally to be able to do that. I felt it was really important to have those conversations to give
education, to talk about birth control options. And one of the things now in 2019 that has me
concerned having worked for reproductive rights for more than 50 years is to see some people
attempting to take their religious viewpoint and assert it for everyone.
[00:53:24.58] I'm very involved in my work as a nature priestess and inter-religious minister of
building bridges with people of many different faith, traditions, religions, and spiritualities. And
yes, also that includes secular humanist, free thinkers, atheists, and agnostics.
[00:53:45.39] We all are in the world together. We need to find ways to listen to each other and
find common ground, where we can collaborate.
[00:53:55.11] That said, we really have to look at America and recognize that there was
diversities in America even before it was settled by Europeans. And I was in Brewton Perry's
Church a couple of days ago when I first arrived. I have some Anglican roots as part of my
religious ancestral mix.
[00:54:20.31] And I saw the plaque from the 1777 talking about the committee. Jefferson, and
George Mason, and George Will, then a couple of other men who worked for the act for religious
freedom in Virginia.
[00:54:37.73] I cherish religious freedom. I cherish my roots of ancestors, as well as my roots at
William and Mary. That it was part of that whole formative period of American society. And
Williamsburg, as well bringing about freedoms.
[00:54:56.78] We really have to cherish those freedoms are those freedoms, and to make certain
that those principles of separation of church and state can be upheld, and that nobody's religious
belief system is used as a weapon to discriminate against other people. And they say that not
only because I am now on a track in my life, where I am serving the religious community and
there is still misunderstanding and discrimination that I've been fighting in that sector, but
because as a woman, I'm entitled to control my body. As a person, I'm entitled to decide when
life begins for me.
[00:55:50.96] And no government and no religious institution has the right to tell me what to do
with my body. Where did that all begin? College of William and Mary. I clearly went through a
transformation process here.
[00:56:08.51] As a result of that, William and Mary rule book because I recognize there. I was
on campus. I'm moving into formative adult years. And I'm not being treated equally.
[00:56:22.91] So part of my passion is rooted not only in that quest for racial equality and gender
equality, but really looking at equality for all, and looking for the importance of creating a world
that's safe. Not only for humans, but for all life. So my passion for the environment began in
William and Mary. My manifestation of really working for racial equality, and women's equality,
and LGBTQ equality happened on campus.[00:57:00.89] I've carried that into my life. And I'm very thankful for the opportunity to not only
learn in the classroom, but to learn in community and being part of a larger movement for a
better world.
[00:57:15.76] CARMEN: Wonderful. And you have made a perfect transition here about the
things you learned or that were developed at William Mary that you carried into your career and
the rest of your life. So I would love to transition to your time after William and Mary.
[00:57:32.00] So can you walk me through your trajectory and where you were focused on as
you went to graduate from William Mary? Maybe what your career aspirations were your--
Yeah. You're just your track leaving William and Mary. And ultimately, how you've come so are
you currently on the track you're currently on.
[00:57:52.01] SELENA: I debated about whether to go to graduate school or not decided that I
would go to graduate school. I applied a variety of different schools. I was accepted with money
at Rutgers University.
[00:58:06.56] I was excited about a program in community psychology. What I didn't fully
realize as I chose that as my next step in my academic development was how unformed the
community psychology program was, and how unprepared that institution was to have women
studying there and being part of the community.
[00:58:40.21] It was still an all-male institution. There was Douglas College, an undergraduate
college that was paired with Rutgers. They decided to let women into the graduate school.
[00:58:54.42] I was one of several women that were in social and personality psychology. We
propose to do a seminar on women's psychology. We gave a 100 page bibliography of resources
as part of our way to put forth that course.
[00:59:16.80] We found the professor who happened to be a young man analyst, and was very
embracing of the balance of male and female to be our advisor, a professor for this special
seminar course. They wouldn't let us have it.
[00:59:33.45] All-male institution of at as undergraduate level. The faculty was all-male. They
head of the department who was a professor of marriage and family. Had been divorced four
times I think.
[00:59:51.70] I had some issues with women. And we found out we were admitted because had
we not been admitted that they would have lost. Funding I believe it was Title IX.
[01:00:06.21] So I was there the first semester. We got paired with various professors. I clearly
wanted to be with a professor that really wanted to do a service, to do psychotherapeutic
analysis, and practice to help put better mental health options in the larger society.[01:00:31.08] I got paired with a professor who thought that it was possible to computerize ways
of interfacing with humans. That all of our actions and thoughts could be binary. And it was not
a good fit.
[01:00:52.92] Well, the middle of the second semester, I decided, even though I had been given
funding to go. There was no way that I could compromise my personal and intellectual integrity
by continuing on in a department that truly wasn't prepared to have women take equal places.
[01:01:16.26] They are happy to say that I've continued to have contact with various people at
Rutgers. And it too is gone through some very positive changes. In fact, at one point a number of
years ago, I was able to get Rutgers to embrace more diversity when it came to accommodating
religious holidays, and let all the pagan Wicca nature religion the holidays be added to the list of
the holidays. I could be excused absences during the exam period.
[01:01:49.80] But clearly, it was time for me to leave Rutgers. I traveled across the United
States, visited a number of places. Ended up in Wisconsin. And started putting roots in
Wisconsin.
[01:02:04.12] I knew I needed to get a job. I consider doing some additional education. I found
myself getting a job in something known as the Women's Resource Center at the University of
Wisconsin. And I became the assistant to Kay Clarenbach.
[01:02:21.90] I had no idea fully when I interviewed for the job how much she had done. One of
the founders of national organization for women very involved in not only the state commission
on the status of women, but a nationwide program with that. Was very involved in trying to get
the Equal Rights Amendment passed the other women in the Women's Resource Center, which
was actually in my home ec department interestingly enough.
[01:02:56.49] We're also smart, industrious, dedicated women who are really looking in
academia to bring about greater equality. Not only on campus, but throughout the state of
Wisconsin and nationwide and around the world.
[01:03:14.44] So I continued on my quest for equal equality, for women, and men while I was
there. I also was part of the women's art collective, put out a women's calendar in the 70s, was
involved in working for the Equal Rights Amendment. I Was very disappointed when it wasn't
ratified.
[01:03:43.40] Continue to hope that we will be able to have that fully realized. Not only in our
society, but as I looked around the world and have gone and spoke at international conferences,
that the status of women and the status of men are equal across the nations. And that the whole
concept of having to work for this becomes part of history, rather than an active issue that's
continuing to happen.
[01:04:18.77] I ended up deciding to go back and get additional education, and went into the
field of commercial art and photography. And was really called to do photography professionally
for a time.[01:04:33.83] This was a field that was still professional photography at that time in the mid 70s,
especially corporate photography was still an all-male profession. There were some women who
were making their living doing photography.
[01:04:49.19] But in the corporate world, in particular, taking pictures for a company's
publication, putting together multimedia shows, and that type of thing was pretty much a male
scene at that time. I decided that I would take a job started as a dark room assistant, worked my
way up into publications editor at a national and international corporation based in Madison,
Wisconsin.
[01:05:21.96] I went to a number of photography trainings and conferences. And at times being
one of a handful of women amongst hundreds of men, I did some news reporting. And found that
being shorter and very polite. Excuse me. Excuse me. Excuse me. Allowed me sometimes to get
right up front and get some really good pictures.
[01:05:51.53] So I continued to do photography to this day, do some freelance work. Though
most of it I'm doing as a pro Bono artistic expression into the world on social media.
[01:06:06.32] So I help break some gender barriers in the realm of commercial professional
photography during the 70s. I really felt it was important to redecorate the halls of religion in a
number of ways. My own spiritual path has taken a multifaceted route.
[01:06:33.86] I was raised fundamentalist Baptist. But I've had a nature mystic dimension to
myself ever since. When I was at the College of William and Mary, I did a experimental
experience show time with the classics, with the full support of all the professors, that graduate
students, the people need of sigma by, the people in the classics club.
[01:07:00.60] And yes, one spring day in 1971, we took on sheets. We dressed in Greco Roman
Garb. IV crowns in our hair. I had a tambourine and that verses, a old ceremonial implement.
And I led this grand procession to the sunken garden.
[01:07:25.20] We called on the spring and welcomed the spring. Called on Dionysus, called on
Mother Earth. And what was done as a fun I thought, and a good way to have an experience with
connecting what the classics.
[01:07:42.93] Actually, changed me and helped me find my spiritual home called the ancient
forms of the divine with some things right out of classical literature. Well, in my opinion, they
came, they showed up. And my own way of connecting with the sacred now has become very
multifaceted, and includes honoring the divine as goddess, as well as the divine as God. And a
multifaceted way, as well as a monotheistic way.
[01:08:23.82] So that began at William and Mary as well. And in fact, when I went back to
graduate school, I decided that I would research how people who were looking to break addiction
and be in recovery worked with the AA model, Alcoholics Anonymous, which was supposed to
be universal and fitting everyone.[01:08:52.23] Well, how did this work for Wiccans, for pagans, for druids, for heathens, for
other nature religion practitioners? And the work that I produced I called when goddess is God,
Pickens recovery, and alcoholics anonymous. And that was the first literature about addiction
treatment to go into the professional literature looking at pagans as a specific minority population
that needed to have appropriate treatment models.
[01:09:27.72] And since then, a variety of different scholars and practitioners have built on that
research. And I'm happy to say there are a lot more aid groups and NA groups and other
addiction recovery groups that are understanding the importance of being able to accommodate
people from a variety of different spiritual and religious viewpoints, as well as people who aren't
religious at all. So that early connection with the old classics has recycled itself as I've continued
my life.
[01:10:06.27] CARMEN: And so that was your graduate school experience. So from graduate
school, did you know how you wanted to apply that higher level of education? Or what were
your steps coming out of that graduate?
[01:10:19.81] SELENA: I've been doing counseling since 1969. I did my very first counseling
session using a divination device called tarot cards, the writer weight tarot cards.
[01:10:36.67] In the Student Union for somebody who was the valedictorian of a graduating
class. Was he going to be drafted or not? Was he going to go to Canada? Or was he going to go
into the service?
[01:10:54.14] And as I did that reading, I was new to really working with these cards. It became
very apparent to me that, yes, he would be drafted. And when they did call the draft numbers, his
birthday was number one. He ended up going to Canada.
[01:11:12.48] Well, I've done all sorts of counseling since my William and Mary days and have
actually brought some of these old ways of helping people communicate with the deepest, most
parts of themselves and get understanding, and to work through trauma, and to work through
stress. Working with a variety of tools. And that too had its root set William and Mary.
[01:11:44.43] So in the 60s, I did some counseling work while I was on campus. And into the
70s, I continued on with that work. I began private practice spiritual counseling in the 80s. And
in the 90s, decided to go back to graduate school to update my knowledge of the science of
psychology, and went for a practicum at a private for profit psychiatric hospital.
[01:12:15.27] I figured to balance all of the more alternative holistic counseling work I was
doing. I needed to go right into the heart of the medical system, and learned about hospitals, and
learned about electroshock therapy, and chemical therapy. And therapies that I personally had
some issues with. But wanted to expand my knowledge of that.
[01:12:43.53] And clearly, brought into that setting and in my time since. A lot of understanding
about health choices and strategies. I was really clear when I entered-- this was my practicum for
my graduate work that I was there in a secular capacity.[01:13:08.46] But I have a holistic approach. So essentially, I'm not going to turn off my intuitive
ways of understanding just because I'm in a secular setting. Once I graduated and got my
advanced degree, I worked at one of the first holistic clinics in Madison, Wisconsin.
[01:13:32.38] And had people from many different backgrounds come and do therapy work in a
clinical setting with me. One of the things that the medical director continued to puzzle about
was that I had people coming and doing sessions with me who were clinically well, they wanted
to get better. They wanted to help self actualizing.
[01:13:57.09] I feel that some people would now call life coaching. And yes, they were doing
self pay. Some of the stuff I had with insurance reimbursed.
[01:14:06.27] And I made sure that I also would be a Medicare provider. Because back in those
times in the 90s, not all the therapists would take people on Medicaid and Medicare because the
compensation wasn't as great.
[01:14:24.22] So I continued to work across classes and doing that work. Some other things that
I have done since the College of William and Mary included serving as a member of the board of
trustees for a private foundation. That lasted nine years and ended in 2001.
[01:14:47.43] It was called the Thanks be to Grandmother Winifred foundation. And it had an
heiress who used some pharmaceutical fortune money to benefit older women who wanted to do
projects to benefit women.
[01:15:05.74] So she was a feminist and a philanthropist. And we felt it was important to bring
some feminist change to the world of philanthropy. And as far as I know, that was the first
foundation to specifically benefit older women helping women's projects.
[01:15:30.05] CARMEN: I thought. And so also, I would just love to hear about the work you're
currently doing. So the work you're doing as high priestess and founder of Circle Sanctuary. I
would love to hear all about it. Anything you want to share about it.
[01:15:47.44] SELENA: So most of my daily life is involved in being senior minister of Circle
Sanctuary. I still do some part time therapy and counseling. I do talks at a variety of public, and
private secular, and religious universities, and places of higher learning.
[01:16:14.57] And I also am guest minister at a variety of Christian, Unitarian Universalist, and
interfaith centers. So I do a variety of different things.
[01:16:25.09] So I started Circle Sanctuary, which is in the international nature religions church
back in 1974 with some other people. And in 1978, we incorporated as a non-profit religious
organization in the state of Wisconsin. We didn't have to incorporate in order to be a religious
institution.[01:16:51.86] But I thought it was really important in the scope of the larger society to go that
route. And I do think part of it comes from institutional training and understanding, and a
conservative upbringing in my family, and even on the campus of William and Mary.
[01:17:12.77] And in 1980, we got federal fiber one C3 status as a church. And what we have
done over the years is provide information and a variety of networking services, as well as things
that churches of all sorts of religions do. Charity work, religious services, rites of passage,
ceremony, religious, education, just a variety of things.
[01:17:42.92] I've been growing that institution with the help of many people over the years. And
in addition to serving people who are in our immediate area in Wisconsin from our very
beginnings, we have been serving people throughout the United States and around the world.
[01:18:02.09] Now, that the world wide web is a thing it has made it much easier to do those
connecting, the connections with people. We are in touch with people in more than 100 different
countries around the world. And through social media, through podcasting, and a variety of
things.
[01:18:23.55] And through growing circles sanctuary, I've had the opportunity to connect with
state and federal government in a variety of ways. Keeping church and state separate continues to
be important.
[01:18:38.84] But also being able to have truly an equal realm involving chaplaincy and support
services for people who are serving in government capacities. Just recently, I became the first
pagan priestess to be a US department of Veterans Affairs VA hospital chaplain endorser.
[01:19:05.99] I've been doing work with the US military since 1969 when I actually had a
summer job with the Department of Defense, US department of Army chief, of staff at the
Pentagon. And I also do some part time consulting work with the US Department of Justice,
Federal Bureau of Prisons.
[01:19:29.00] I brought in to the National Correctional Academy. And I trained chaplains in
diversity. Not only ways to better serve religious leaders that are coming in and providing
services and federal correctional institutions, but how to have fair and equal accommodation for
people who are incarcerated, people who want to practice their own belief system or learn about
a different belief system.
[01:19:59.48] So I've been working at a federal capacity with the Bureau of Prisons since 1990.
And I've worked with the Pentagon in an advisory capacity since 1983 and '84 when I helped
revise the section on the Wiccan religion in the army chaplains handbook.
[01:20:21.32] So I continue to be involved in government work. A lot of what I do is pro Bono.
Some of it is paid.
[01:20:30.20] And in the state of Wisconsin, I've been serving on the religious practices advisory
committee for the Secretary of the Department of Corrections since it was formed in 2001. Butmy work in terms of diversity education with the state of Wisconsin with corrections goes back
to 1980 when I became the first pagan minister to do a wedding service or any kind of a
ceremony in a chapel at a state prison.
[01:21:01.82] I am an endorser of lay chaplains and religious leaders at a variety of different
military installations, including our circle at Fort hood in Texas at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
Great Lakes recruit training command a.k.a. Navy boot camp in Chicago.
[01:21:25.04] We have groups that circle sanctuary sponsors, and a variety of different places
throughout the United States, as well as on ships and in other countries. Some of which are more
quiet.
[01:21:42.66] So we're working with some people who are in some pretty dangerous zones, as
well as working with people in a variety of different capacities. So I've been doing this religious
accommodation work as part of my work as a senior minister of circle's sanctuary.
[01:21:58.91] Beginning in the 1980s, I started expanding my interfaith work, which was begun
in the 60s is more of a national and a religious work that came out of the work for racial equality.
And the quest for peace has expanded into the international arena. I was one of the first pagans to
be at an international interfaith conference that was 1980 in Chicago. And one of the only
women at that conference.
[01:22:34.37] And when I talk about redecorating the halls of religion, it's not only helping to
bring greater understanding of nature-based religions and spiritualities, but having a place for
more women to be present, and equal, and acknowledged as religious leaders and scholars and
advisors.
[01:22:57.02] So in 1988, representing circle's sanctuary, myself and a very good friend Margot
Adler who is a national Public Radio correspondent. And Alfred Adler's granddaughter actually
is also a very good friend of mine.
[01:23:16.55] We were at the very first international interfaith dialogue conference for women
sponsored by the World Council of Churches was held in Canada. And we were selected along
with several dozen other women from many different faith traditions, from countries from all
around the world to sit, to share experience, to really talk about the status of women, and
different religious communities, and religious traditions.
[01:23:50.03] And it was wonderful to be able to help build some bridges of understanding. I
know that some people had their eyebrows raised that there were pagan priestesses amongst this
mix. And part of it was not any real accurate information.
[01:24:12.25] And I do think having some face to face work is really important. The Parliament
of the world's religions began in 1893 as part of the Columbia exposition in Chicago. And 100
years after its founding, a centennial parliament of the world's religions was born again in
Chicago.[01:24:37.60] And I was part of that Centennial parliament of the world's religions and have
been involved in each of the one since '93 in Chicago. And 1999, it was off to South Africa Cape
Town. 2004 in Barcelona, Spain.
[01:24:57.13] 2009 Melbourne, Australia. I linked up cyber warriors for that one. 2015, in Salt
Lake City, Utah. And most recently, 2018 beginning of November in Toronto.
[01:25:13.30] I not only did presentations that had an environmental focused. Eco psychology
with my husband Denis Carpenter and eco spirituality we did a presentation on that.
[01:25:27.64] But I was part of the women's track programming and did a presentation on
women and the rites of passage into their senior years known as croning. And I've been one of
the women who have helped birth ceremonies to celebrate going into elder years.
[01:25:47.74] And while that has begun as a Wiccan and contemporary pagan, tradition it is now
gone throughout many places in Christianity. People of other religions have started embracing
the idea of why not celebrate going into senior hood.
[01:26:08.50] I also for the first time was part of the women's art salon. And it was called Spirit
Soaring. And women from different religions, different nationalities, different racial
backgrounds, and ethnicities were there with different types of art.
[01:26:25.33] I brought one of my photographs full circle with my photography career. And was
able to talk with that. I've also done podcasting as part of my contemporary work.
[01:26:40.51] I do music. I make chants primarily. And some of my chat work has its roots.
[01:26:50.86] And political rallies that I helped organize at Mindarie. But now, I've expanded it
to using chants, to help people with health, and wellness, as well as in a spiritual context to
strengthen one's connection with the sacred.
[01:27:11.60] So I was for the first time at all the parliaments that I've gone to on the festival
stage doing a chant and having some people from our church also doing a chant together and
telling a story. In fact, the story that I chose to tell at the Parliament of World's Religions in 2018
was my time back in 1988 in Canada making change and helping to bring about a more equal
world for women in the halls of religion.
[01:27:48.94] CARMEN: Wow. I don't know what else I can say, except for wow. I mean, your
involvement has been so widespread. But it's so easy.
[01:27:58.57] And you've done so well to trace the lines of continuity from William and Mary,
from even before throughout your life and your life's work, which is incredible. So thank you for
taking the time to do that.
[01:28:10.15] SELENA: I'd say one other thing I should mention.[01:28:13.15] CARMEN: Yeah.
[01:28:13.45] SELENA: Because it was another thing involving the environment is I've been
very active not only in nature preservation and environmental science, but helping to bridge the
world of environmental scientists with the realm of nature spirituality and having people be able
to not only have the actual knowledge regarding science and what happens with the environment,
but to be able to nurture self, nurture community, and to connect with nature beyond observation
and naming things to actually commune with nature.
[01:28:57.55] And one of the things that I've contributed to that science and spirituality
environmental connection is being part of the green greeting the end of life movement. I helped
found one the first green cemeteries in America. It's called circle cemetery.
[01:29:19.08] And bodies are returned to the earth without embalming. And degradable
containers, wood coffins, linen shroud, that kind of thing.
[01:29:31.51] So in 1995, I started to circle cemetery. And I'm continuing to help people with
their end of life choices. Not only in doing green funerals, but green burials and running a green
cemetery.
[01:29:50.89] CARMEN: That's fantastic. Well, thank you for adding that. So I really just have a
couple more questions for you.
[01:30:00.85] You've mentioned it a couple of times or a couple of different things really that
you've seen about changes that have occurred at William and Mary over the past 50 years. But
are there any changes you'd still like to see occur William and Mary?
[01:30:17.70] SELENA: I think experiential learning. There is that happening. I'm part of a
series for that.
[01:30:28.35] Is really an important part of a way of having knowledge translate into
understanding. And I celebrate the innovation that's being done here at the College of William
and Mary.
[01:30:46.91] And walking through the library I saw the 3D printers. And I'm so thankful that we
William and Mary's library work has joined other libraries that are keeping the libraries vital, and
bringing that equipment, and making it available for people.
[01:31:09.55] Another thing that I think not only for William and Mary, but in society as a
whole. How training people and biofeedback and in consciousness studies. This is part from
religion.
[01:31:26.58] Really looking at ways of harnessing. The creative power of our minds. And I
know from talking with people on the campus community during the short time I've been here
this week so far that there is that happening.[01:31:42.88] But I think some courses, which really take a look at the idea of precognition, how
does that work, an interdisciplinary approach. How do some people come to know things before
they happen?
[01:32:02.13] How do we come to make discovery? How do we come to know where to explore
for a piece of research? And as somebody who has not only developed my rational, intellectual
capacities, but has worked on connecting with that still small voice with, that intuitive side.
[01:32:28.47] I really think that that type of education of having people harness more of the
powers of mind is something not only would be great to have more of here, but across society as
a whole.
[01:32:44.92] And I think we also have to be thinking about living off planet. And to have
people not only understand what's necessary for our physiological needs and our social needs,
but our social and emotional needs.
[01:33:05.37] Do some dream research with people living on another planet. Can we do mind to
mind communication? Can we transmit messages without the need of any type of wireless
technology? Are there technologies of the mind that we can harness?
[01:33:25.80] And find out more about that inner connectedness that not only links humans
together, but puts us in touch with that greater web of life. Not only here on planet Earth, but in
our solar system or galaxy in the cosmos.
[01:33:42.66] So yes, I think we have to continue to innovate and project ourselves into the
future, learn from the past and continue to discover the past as we're here at the crossroads of the
eternal present.
[01:33:59.58] CARMEN: Wonderful. Thank you for reflecting on that. So my final question for
you is this. Considering that we've spent these past two years celebrating and commemorating 50
years of African-Americans in residence and 100 years of coeducation, what do you believe to be
the value and contribution of women on campus and beyond? And also, more broadly of
diversity and inclusion on campus and beyond.
[01:34:27.99] SELENA: I think William and Mary is setting a really good example to not only
other people within the immediate area in the state, but in our country and around the world. We
are very globally connected.
[01:34:46.86] One of the things that warm my heart is I landed in Williamsburg and ventured
forth. I went immediately to the campus. I went to the college yard. I went into the red building.
And of course, I'm out in the sunken garden a place where I did my very first rite of spring.
[01:35:09.30] And then in 2011, I came back in the classics club in the Unitarian Universalist
pagans co-sponsored by talk at my ceremony, which was a rite of fall of the sunken garden. I saw
a sign celebrating 100 years of women.[01:35:27.46] And to see that celebration be campus wide was exciting and wonderful. And I
think in terms of the contributions of women. More women are more visible now and are out in
leadership roles in society.
[01:35:50.59] The campus itself now has coeducation. Chastity Roe, which was my home for
years when I was a student at the College of William and Mary is now CoEd.
[01:36:03.79] It's so wonderful to see inclusion, to see diversity, and to hear the conversations
that so far have been respectful and considerate. And there's been just diverse people I've
connected with already.
[01:36:26.68] But some of those basic principles that are viewed in the honor code edited
imbued, I think of the values that have been at the heart of William and Mary are continuing to
be present. Honesty, integrity, working for a better society, doing community service.
[01:36:47.50] And to be able to have women and men and people that are not binary gender and
gender nonconforming all being able to be in a community together I see as a really positive
thing. I am really hoping that as the oral history project continues to unfold, that even more
voices will be able to share their perspectives about what it's been like, and their life's journey,
and what possibilities there may be at our world.
[01:37:22.84] Because it isn't so much just learning. It's what you do with that learning. And
when you think about it using a cooking metaphor, we grow, we come to college. And what
ingredients coming into us as we were having a college experience really plays a big part in how
we turn out as adults and how we continue to be in the world.
[01:37:51.47] And so I'm very thankful that this has been a place of my making and continues to
be a place that I will periodically come back, and visit, and celebrate.
[01:38:06.16] CARMEN: Wonderful. So that's the end of my question list. But I just want to take
some time here at the end to open up to you to add anything else if there are topics we didn't
touch that you wanted to discuss. Anything at all before we close it.
[01:38:20.26] SELENA: I'm just going to take a look at my notes and see if there are some other
things to mention here.
[01:38:38.35] CARMEN: You've had a busy, busy life. That much.
[01:38:42.29] SELENA: That is true. That is true. I made some other notes here.
[01:38:47.65] And clearly, I'm working in so many different ways. I think that I made a note of a
variety of different.
[01:39:09.68] I think one more thing to contribute to the mix. So the first ceremony I did in a
public realm. It's on campus. But anybody could come by and join us, or whatever was that rite
of spring back in 1971.[01:39:26.80] Well, the very, very first ceremony that was a campus ceremony that I had an
important part to play was a yuletide 1970. I was part of mortarboard, and was part of the year
long ceremony.
[01:39:46.69] And yes, that year long ceremony has continued with my life to this day. Because
one of the things that I've written about, I podcast about, I've created chants about, I've spoken
about is ways to be in touch with nature by celebrating the seasons and the local area.
[01:40:07.05] So I have looked at some of the old Lore from my personal English heritage, as
well as that underpinning for the College of William and Mary. But also have gone very
multicultural and international and looking at how seasons are celebrated around the world. And
so another thing that has its roots back here.
[01:40:31.06] CARMEN: Yeah. Just the abundance of connections and ways in which our
experience here has really continued playing out in your life.
[01:40:37.99] SELENA: Yeah.
[01:40:38.68] CARMEN: Well, thank you so much for just participating in this interview. I think
the information you shared is not only critical for us knowing and understanding a more
complete version of William Mary's history, but I think it'll be really critical for others to be able
to access and hear about your experiences here. So thank you so much for taking the time to
share.
[01:41:00.85] SELENA: Well, it was really a pleasure to be able to be here, to connect with you,
and be part of this project. Very thankful to be here celebrating 100 years of women at the
College of William and Mary.